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07-17-2019, 12:32 AM

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Originally Posted by ShootingArts View Post
Years ago I got Joe Villalpando's first two DVD's. I had a hard time going between wow and being angry. A beginner could spend three months working with those DVD's and shave years off of their learning curve, the same years I put in learning things the hard way. I lost those DVD's in a hurricane and flood. A few years later Joe sent me his last DVD set. More pure gold, put down in a different manner. He basically goes through a three day class, just edited for time. You would think these DVD's couldn't be sent out fast enough but I doubt more than a few handfuls, hundreds at most, have been sold.

Hu
This is the only DVD set I own that I got from Willie Jopling. One of the nicest guys I ever met. Watched them I don't know how many times. Got a couple old straight pool books somewhere too, but that's about it.

Other then that, hit a million balls.
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07-17-2019, 02:14 AM

great post lou ,totally agree .
i began playing pool in 1987 , the only advice i have was "mastering pool "by george fels .
it takes me 3 and a half year and thousands of hours practicing straight pool , to run 100 balls .
the people say natural talent , pick a cue and can play .
no... i work harder than everybody else on it .
beause i want to reach it with everything i have .
  
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07-17-2019, 02:41 AM

hit the damn ball over and over and over again !!!

this is the secret , the ultimate truth .
  
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07-17-2019, 03:26 AM

The physics of what is going on with all but the simplest shots is actually pretty complicated, more complicated than you have time to sort out completely for every shot.

Of course a bunch of practice is good, you are teaching your brain to make little adjustments based on results. Nobody would ever argue against the idea that lots of practice is good.

But people seem to think they are somehow making physics mystically not apply to them by practicing hours on end. If a high jumper gets better after tons of practice...and maybe studying technique...it isn't because he magically made gravity go away.

Some people learn quicker if they can understand the physics of a shot, some find an aiming system to be a shorthand way to consider the physics and some are only confused by all of this and just need to hit a ton of balls.

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07-17-2019, 03:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by logical View Post
The physics of what is going on with all but the simplest shots is actually pretty complicated, more complicated than you have time to sort out completely for every shot.

Of course a bunch of practice is good, you are teaching your brain to make little adjustments based on results. Nobody would ever argue against the idea that lots of practice is good.

But people seem to think they are somehow making physics mystically not apply to them by practicing hours on end. If a high jumper gets better after tons of practice...and maybe studying technique...it isn't because he magically made gravity go away.

Some people learn quicker if they can understand the physics of a shot, some find an aiming system to be a shorthand way to consider the physics and some are only confused by all of this and just need to hit a ton of balls.

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I would say it like this.

Some people like to know and understand the science behind things, and apply it to the performance of an action.

Some could care less about the physics of what is happening, they just want to know how to hit the ball, and get good at doing so.

To play at the elite level does not require an extensive knowledge of the physics/science behind the game. Dr Dave knows far more than Efren Reyes about the science of pocket billiards. However Dr Dave will not come close to Efren's knowledge of how to play the game in terms of what to do, and the precision/consistency of execution.

People have their niches, and thats just how it is. Not every kid that picks up a football can be Joe Montana. Not every kid who goes to school will be a PHD.


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BC21
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07-17-2019, 05:18 AM

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Originally Posted by Shuddy View Post
I think the problem with this is that most aiming systems are so convoluted (because there isn’t really a simple answer to finding the exact contact point other than ghost ball) that they distract from learning and enjoying the basics of the game.

I played snooker for about 20 years before playing pool, and I had never really heard serious discussion of aiming systems until I started playing pool. I recently, just for interest, tried using CTE, and seriously, it did my head in. I can’t imagine explaining it to a beginner and expecting them to get anything productive out of it while trying learn and enjoy pool.

The ghost ball is a solid concept to explain aiming, and I think beyond that, I agree with the OP; it’s repetition. And I don’t think learning approximate potting angles takes all that long, at least to the point where your brain understands whats going on. I think playing 20 full ball, quarter ball, half ball, and three quarter ball shots with a ghost ball would be enough to get most people in line with how aiming relates to the movement of the object ball.

In my opinion, cuesports are difficult enough, offering enough to think about, without introducing aiming systems that have as many exceptions and qualifications as English grammar (a system which some people fail to implement correctly even after 60 years of using it everyday). I think they are also an entry point to the rabbit hole of cuesports insanity, that place that sucks in those too willing to obsess over the search for a magic bullet that will solve all their pool playing woes.
Excellent points. Many aiming systems are too convoluted to process naturally. I do agree that using ghostball, along with a solid fractional reference, would be a great way of developing aiming skills and learning cb-ob relationships/interactions, much more effective than using ghostball alone without referencing any solid point of aim directly on or just outside the edge of the ob.

It may not be the way most of us learned the game, but in my opinion aiming for something you can actually see is better than aiming for an estimated imaginary ghostball location.

Sorry, Lou, I know the thread wasn't meant to drift into an aiming discussion. Your point was geared more toward required table time, putting in the many hours needed to program your brain through shot repetition, trial and error. Unfortunately this programming process typically involves a ton of failed shots before pocketing balls becomes consistent enough to benefit from the process of shot repetition. We learn good and bad the same way -- by repeating the same good or bad over and over. So if we can reduce or eliminate the bad, we find ourselves repeating more good than bad, streamlining the learning process so that it doesn't require as much time.


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07-17-2019, 05:49 AM

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Originally Posted by lfigueroa View Post
The equations are interesting. To some they are fun and I believe there is no such thing as "too much knowledge." Certainly there can be no harm in learning and understanding them. But a great pool player they do not make. But I think we sometimes make the mistake in this group of placing way too much emphasis on the x and y of it, instead of practical ways to learn the physical act of shooting pool balls. Stance, head position, bridge, grip, levelness of cue, and delivery are what it's about. Now before the science guys (and wannabe science guys) go ballistic, I want to say that I like the diversity of the group and the fact that you can go from the discussions about gyroscopes to the first person accounts of road trips taken.
Overall, I agree with you. I have always been a "slide rule" kind of guy. STEM skills come naturally for me. If understanding physics helps a player's pool game, I should be a heck of a lot better player than I am.

My point of disagreement is that I think there is more to succeeding at pool than "Stance, head position, bridge, grip, levelness of cue, and delivery". Those skills get me close to the pocket, but are not enough for running balls. As I get older, maintaining the mental focus to know a ball is going into the pocket before I shoot it is more difficult over playing sessions. That level of focus comes and goes and the intellectual parts of how to shoot the shot are not enough to overcome the lack when the judgment is not there.
  
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07-17-2019, 05:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BC21 View Post
Excellent points. I agree that using ghostball, along with a solid fractional reference, would be a great way of developing aiming skills and learning cb-ob relationships/interactions, much more effective than using ghostball alone without referencing any solid point of aim directly on or just outside the edge of the ob.

It may not be the way most of us learned the game, but in my opinion aiming for something you can actually see is better than aiming for an estimated imaginary ghostball location.

Sorry, Lou, I know the thread wasn't meant to drift into an aiming discussion. Your point was geared more toward required table time, putting in the many hours needed to program your brain through shot repetition, trial and error. Unfortunately this programming process typically involves a ton of failed shots before pocketing balls becomes consistent enough to benefit from the process of shot repetition. We learn good and bad the same way -- by repeating the same good or bad over and over. So if we can reduce or eliminate the bad, we find ourselves repeating more good than bad, streamlining the learning process so that it doesn't require as much time.
Your funny........show me one picture of a pool shot that has something to aim at. Put a little arrow in the picture that points at what can be seen by anyone to use for aiming. Ghostball is no different than any other method because they all require a player to use their imgination in visualizing what is needed for a shot. There ainít nothing on the table nor ball that can be used.

You learn more from your failures than successes. And yes, in the beginning to learn to play pool, there will be a lot of failures, there is nothing to prevent this. The amount of failures is not the same for all. Some people learn quicker than others regardless of sighting method.

Cause and effect is what will teaches a player. Trail and error. Thing is, the more you do something and do it well, the less trail and error there is, as time goes on, because of past successful and failed shots.

The biggest weakness I see in inexperienced players is speed control. I seldom see a player practicing any form of ball speed control. In their play, the lack of speed control shows in their position play.

For precise speed control, it takes table time and lots of it. HAMB is vital in learning this. You put this much stroke on the CB and then watch the results.......cause and effect. You file those results for later reference.

And repeat in order to build up the biggest database you can about shot making.

To downplay the importance of hitting a lot of balls, HAMB, is really doing a disservice to new players. The more table time, the more quality table time a player puts in, the more they get back.

Handicapping systems are partly the blamed for the deline of HAMB. Why practice a lot when a handicapp gives ya chance to win. Itís this reason I do not play in handicapp tourneys.

You can not know the effects of the different types of spin that can be put on a CB without table time and again, the more time, the better a player will understand those effects.

Table time is critical in building muscle memory which your stroke is greatly dependent on. The more you do it, the more muscle memory is built......and table time is required.

Mastering pool goes way beyond sighting methods which some seem to believe is the holy grail to mastering pool. Mastering pool requires precise shot execution, over and over and massive amounts of table is the only way to achieve this and maintain that level.
  
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Always - 07-17-2019, 06:10 AM

Walk up to every shot the same way....

And....

''when your down....your done''.


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07-17-2019, 06:11 AM

Is there a sport out there that the increased knowledge of physics didnít help to grow the sport??

The knowledge has itís place. Let the guys who understand the physics use that knowledge to help grow the sport and help make it better. Sports science is huge in every sport I can think of. But apparently you Pool is too unique for that.

If someone doesnít want to learn the physics, nothing stops that. Practicing, playing, repetition, and rote are the standard ways we all learn this game. Nothing stops that either.


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Physics Of pool
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Physics Of pool - 07-17-2019, 06:16 AM

Just line up center to edge and edge to A,B,C PIVOT TO CENTER CUE BALL. EASIEST WAY TO MAKE A BALL.
  
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07-17-2019, 06:26 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valiant Thor View Post
Just line up center to edge and edge to A,B,C PIVOT TO CENTER CUE BALL. EASIEST WAY TO MAKE A BALL.
What's it like to never miss?

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07-17-2019, 06:35 AM

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Originally Posted by duckie View Post
Your funny........show me one picture of a pool shot that has something to aim at. Put a little arrow in the picture that points at what can be seen by anyone to use for aiming. Ghostball is no different than any other method because they all require a player to use their imgination in visualizing what is needed for a shot. There ainít nothing on the table nor ball that can be used.

You learn more from your failures than successes. And yes, in the beginning to learn to play pool, there will be a lot of failures, there is nothing to prevent this. The amount of failures is not the same for all. Some people learn quicker than others regardless of sighting method.

Cause and effect is what will teaches a player. Trail and error. Thing is, the more you do something and do it well, the less trail and error there is, as time goes on, because of past successful and failed shots.

The biggest weakness I see in inexperienced players is speed control. I seldom see a player practicing any form of ball speed control. In their play, the lack of speed control shows in their position play.

For precise speed control, it takes table time and lots of it. HAMB is vital in learning this. You put this much stroke on the CB and then watch the results.......cause and effect. You file those results for later reference.

And repeat in order to build up the biggest database you can about shot making.

To downplay the importance of hitting a lot of balls, HAMB, is really doing a disservice to new players. The more table time, the more quality table time a player puts in, the more they get back.

Handicapping systems are partly the blamed for the deline of HAMB. Why practice a lot when a handicapp gives ya chance to win. Itís this reason I do not play in handicapp tourneys.

You can not know the effects of the different types of spin that can be put on a CB without table time and again, the more time, the better a player will understand those effects.

Table time is critical in building muscle memory which your stroke is greatly dependent on. The more you do it, the more muscle memory is built......and table time is required.

Mastering pool goes way beyond sighting methods which some seem to believe is the holy grail to mastering pool. Mastering pool requires precise shot execution, over and over and massive amounts of table is the only way to achieve this and maintain that level.
Yes, we "learn" from mistakes. But learning something isn't the same as developing a consistent skill. If I point to an object and say "aim here, point your cue to right here", there is nothing to learn. I am telling you where to aim. If you can't do it it's not because you don't know where to aim, it's because you haven't developed the skill to do it consistently. There is no learning, as far as recognizing where to point your cue, because it is a given part of the equation. You just have to keep repeating it to develop the skill of doing it successfully.

And of course there's a hell of a lot more to the game than just pocketing balls. It's all this other stuff that should require the most table time. Very few pool players master the game. Not even those we consider to he masters think they have mastered the game. Most players just want to be better players, and understanding how we develop/program our brain for precision is the pathway to this goal.

Here's an example you asked for, a 3/4 ball aim using the ob as an aiming reference. It is quite visible and not difficult to estimate an aim point halfway between straight on and the outer left surface of the ob from the cb's perspective.



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07-17-2019, 06:46 AM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
By happy coincidence, Dr. Dave just posted about his new Top 10 Myths video. Any of those myths in particular that you like better than the "science"?

pj
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There are several.

The one about elevated draw; a closed bridge for power draw; sidespin not affecting the path of the CB; the one about more spin from certain cues; and the stroke type not changing shot action.

You have been around long enough to have heard me say several times that every pool player creates their own reality when it comes to shooting pool. So as it applies to these myths, all I know is that my reality tells me something different than Dr. Dave's videos.

That's just me.

I'm not advocating anything for anyone else. What I'm saying is that when I'm shooting pool I know certain things that I can choose to do will consistently provide me with a certain outcome. So I use it. YMMV.

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07-17-2019, 06:47 AM

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Originally Posted by AtLarge View Post
Lou, didn't I just read this recently here on AzB? But I can't find it now. Was it in a thread that has been deleted?

Large, I don't recall posting it recently.

Of course I don't read every thread here so perhaps someone else did.

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