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11-09-2019, 09:01 PM

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Originally Posted by ShortBusRuss View Post
Maybe if the game was One Pocket. No way Jimmy Fusco was ever in Jim Rempe's zip code at rotation games, or straight pool. And he gambled plenty. I think I'd trust Jay Helfert's assessment of this over some random dude from Jimmy Fusco's back yard. Let's ask him.
I completely agree, Fusco was an amazing player in his area and would give about anyone all they wanted but Rempe was a killer at a different level. I was at the Denver tourney and Nick should have won that event, in the matches before he lost Nick played near perfect. That's where I first met you...you told me you were a C player! Then offered me a game.


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11-09-2019, 09:03 PM

Yes, Nick is 71 years - young.

And he went to Evansville about 3-4 months ago and won an 8-Ball tournament over there. There are a lot of good players over in the Evansville area. Just ask Skyler Woodward.

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11-09-2019, 09:17 PM

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Originally Posted by Cuebuddy View Post
I completely agree, Fusco was an amazing player in his area and would give about anyone all they wanted but Rempe was a killer at a different level. I was at the Denver tourney and Nick should have won that event, in the matches before he lost Nick played near perfect. That's where I first met you...you told me you were a C player! Then offered me a game.
Lol, sorry, I don't remember.. I always play up that "C player" thing as more of a joke, than anything else, because that came from Smorgass Bored, and I think it's funny. Realistically, I can give a B player weight, even when not really in stroke. But I don't gamble much, because I simply don't get the chance to PLAY much.

It is a bit frustrating, though. I don't REALLY know what my Fargorate is "supposed" to be... I know that at least half of the pros I have played got woken up during the match by me being ahead at the business end of the match, forcing them to play hard... But military contracting/weight has kept me from ever reaching my potential. All I know is 580 Fargorate players don't put pressure on top pros. Period.

I decided to skip Derby this year to specifically work on my weight, to get to a point by next fall where I can 100% focus on getting my stroke perfected, and practicing the bread and butter shots/break, etc. Had Scott Frost down 5-0, 6-0 first two games of our DCC One Pocket match this year, before I found a way to lose with bad strokes. I am getting REAL tired of "almosts" against these world class players.

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11-09-2019, 09:32 PM

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Originally Posted by ShortBusRuss View Post
Lol, sorry, I don't remember.. I always play up that "C player" thing as more of a joke, than anything else, because that came from Smorgass Bored, and I think it's funny. Realistically, I can give a B player weight, even when not really in stroke. But I don't gamble much, because I simply don't get the chance to PLAY much.

It is a bit frustrating, though. I don't REALLY know what my Fargorate is "supposed" to be... I know that at least half of the pros I have played got woken up during the match by me being ahead at the business end of the match, forcing them to play hard... But military contracting/weight has kept me from ever reaching my potential. All I know is 580 Fargorate players don't put pressure on top pros. Period.

I decided to skip Derby this year to specifically work on my weight, to get to a point by next fall where I can 100% focus on getting my stroke perfected, and practicing the bread and butter shots/break, etc. Had Scott Frost down 5-0, 6-0 first two games of our DCC One Pocket match this year, before I found a way to lose with bad strokes. I am getting REAL tired of "almosts" against these world class players.
From our couple of short sets, I'd put you at a B+, or about 600 speed.
  
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11-09-2019, 09:52 PM

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Originally Posted by iusedtoberich View Post
From our couple of short sets, I'd put you at a B+, or about 600 speed.
I've struggled the last few years at Derby, due to lack of committed playing time. I would agree with your assessment. The year I put in serious practice and put heat on Morra and Joey Gray, I was playing better, albeit inconsistently. In recent times, I have shortened my stroke for repeatability, and been working more at being able to put a better stroke on the ball at distance, and not just punch the ball around the table (which leads to a too-forceful stroke, and lack of speed control).

My patterns when I practice these days are much more free-flowing, as I am decelerating less through the cue ball. I had something in the back of my mind for years that told me I needed to hit the ball "slower" to control my cue ball, and "hold" certain angles. I have been watching a lot of Filler/SVB lately, and my brain is starting to assimilate a different way of hitting the ball.

If I can lose some weight, I do feel I may be on the cusp of a real change in my game. I know I am perfectly capable of dominating a 650+ player when putting in the time, and I've proven it to myself against some of the best players in my pool club here in Germany. I just need to be more committed to ironing out the kinks.
  
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11-09-2019, 10:02 PM

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Originally Posted by iusedtoberich View Post
Attachment 534063

How is Varner a 777 with a robustness of 706? Except for a few seniors one pocket events in the past 10 years, I don't recall him playing in anything. Where and when did he get the 706 games since FargoRate went live? And how in the world did he play at a 777 level? I'm scratching my head here.
Nick's rating is mostly from old games, though not as old as you suggest. He played US Open 2010 and US Open 2011. So he was playing a fair amount through 8 years ago. Between then and now he's logged another 195 games here and there with 80 of them in the last year and a half--couple tournaments in Indiana. Those 195 games are at 769 speed.

In 2014, playing the Nick Varner Classic, he played Joey Gray, Johnny Archer, Mika Immonen, and Chip Compton with a combined score of 33 to 31.

Is he a 777? Probably not. That number is pretty brittle and relies on a bunch of old data. But there's good evidence he plays pretty sporty...


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11-09-2019, 10:10 PM

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Originally Posted by deanoc View Post
does nick have a 777 or not

is the fargo thing for 9 ball,one pocket,or what
i am unfamiliar with the whole thing

josh roberts is rated higher than tony chohan

as is jj

yet i thought tony beat them both

i honetly don't know how it works
If you still donít know much about Fargo ratings - Go to FargoRate.com. There is plenty of information there to get educated.
  
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11-09-2019, 10:34 PM

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Originally Posted by mikepage View Post
Nick's rating is mostly from old games, though not as old as you suggest. He played US Open 2010 and US Open 2011. So he was playing a fair amount through 8 years ago. Between then and now he's logged another 195 games here and there with 80 of them in the last year and a half--couple tournaments in Indiana. Those 195 games are at 769 speed.

In 2014, playing the Nick Varner Classic, he played Joey Gray, Johnny Archer, Mika Immonen, and Chip Compton with a combined score of 33 to 31.

Is he a 777? Probably not. That number is pretty brittle and relies on a bunch of old data. But there's good evidence he plays pretty sporty...
Mike,

I really wish that Fargorate was patterned more off the way that the U.S. Chess Federation handles it's ratings... Any individual player can buy their own membership, and any games they play in a rated event are rated. No need to get an entire league to sign on.. Players can hold their own 8-man tournaments without a league license, etc....

I understand your goal is to get large groups of people paying into the system at once, so you can make a profit, so you are going after the leagues, but it leaves international players who play at more of a regional level, and already have well-developed league systems in place, out in the cold.

We need some kind of option for an individual to register as a tournament director, and be able to hold any size tournament they wish (including two-man), and report to Fargorate. I just don't see that option when I look at the LMS site, and I feel it's purpose is to try to get area leagues to adopt en masse. That simply will...not...happen... in Europe, because their league systems, websites, and reporting, are already FAR better than anything the U.S. has in any of it's major leagues...

Am I missing this option somewhere? The more tournaments that are held at a local level here in Europe, that we can get Fargo-rated, the more European mid-level players will have a FargoRate.. And the more that have a FargoRate, the more likely it is that the larger area Liga systems will mandate Fargorating across the board, and start charging the yearly fee.

Of course, to get off the ground, every local Fargorated tourney would require the yearly Fargorate fee from each participating player. Is there some option for this?

Also, in the USCF system, I can look up any player in the system, and look at every single game/match they've played, since they were a USCF member. This allows me to see if they've made a recent improvement to their game, I can predict what my rating change will be if I will/lose/draw to them, etc. The system is extremely addictive, and pushes people to improve.

Last edited by ShortBusRuss; 11-09-2019 at 10:38 PM.
  
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11-10-2019, 04:37 AM

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Originally Posted by mikepage View Post
Nick's rating is mostly from old games, though not as old as you suggest. He played US Open 2010 and US Open 2011. So he was playing a fair amount through 8 years ago. Between then and now he's logged another 195 games here and there with 80 of them in the last year and a half--couple tournaments in Indiana. Those 195 games are at 769 speed.

In 2014, playing the Nick Varner Classic, he played Joey Gray, Johnny Archer, Mika Immonen, and Chip Compton with a combined score of 33 to 31.

Is he a 777? Probably not. That number is pretty brittle and relies on a bunch of old data. But there's good evidence he plays pretty sporty...

8 years is a long time.

I know you've said that games in the past aren't given as much weight as current games..

If a win today has a value of 1. How far back do you have to go before that value decreases, and is there a hard stop? For example, if the answer to the first part of the question is 2 years, and the value of a win decreases to 0.8. Would it always be 0.8, or it would decrease again after another 2 years?

Do you know what Nick's speed would be if you only looked at the last 3 years?
  
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Your right!
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Your right! - 11-10-2019, 04:56 AM

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Originally Posted by ShortBusRuss View Post
Maybe if the game was One Pocket. No way Jimmy Fusco was ever in Jim Rempe's zip code at rotation games, or straight pool. And he gambled plenty. I think I'd trust Jay Helfert's assessment of this over some random dude from Jimmy Fusco's back yard. Let's ask him.
Fusco would never play Rempe even in any rotation game for cash, never!
  
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Well...,
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Well..., - 11-10-2019, 04:59 AM

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Originally Posted by deanoc View Post
does nick have a 777 or not

is the fargo thing for 9 ball,one pocket,or what
i am unfamiliar with the whole thing

josh roberts is rated higher than tony chohan

as is jj

yet i thought tony beat them both

i honetly don't know how it works
Tony has no chance against Josh in 8 ball, 9 ball or 10 ball, its not even close. Tony is the King of One Pocket or at least one of the top 3.
  
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11-10-2019, 05:14 AM

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Originally Posted by iusedtoberich View Post
Here is the list of top USA only players, for comparison to Nick's Fargo. Nick's 777 would put him at #7, ahead of a bunch of well known and currently active pros.

Attachment 534080
I don't like Nick's chances playing 9-Ball currently with too many on this list. At One Pocket he could still beat some of them. He's still a threat playing Banks and Straights as well.


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11-10-2019, 05:33 AM

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Originally Posted by iusedtoberich View Post
You think so? My buddies from Philly from his age group, said he was only a tourney player, and players like Jimmy Fusco would have beaten him for the cash.

Oh, I guess Hopkins would have been an 800 level or above also.
Jimmy Fusco was a good friend of mine and a damn good player, His strongest game was actually Banks with Straight Pool and 9-Ball his next two best. He was worshiped in Philly where he reigned supreme for decades. Not too many players wanted any part of him playing on his home court - Boulevard Billiards, or anywhere else in South Philly for that matter. But get him on a neutral court and he was vulnerable. Not soft by any means, but vulnerable.

Rempe meanwhile could play anywhere and be right at home. He handled different conditions well. Not so many people know that Jimmy R. made his bones traveling all around the East and Midwest as a youngster playing anyone who wanted a game, and playing all games! He was already a legendary gambler when he was a teenager!

I think there was mutual respect between Rempe and Fusco, two old school warriors. But did Fusco want to gamble with Rempe, I doubt it. Jimmy R. was the superior player at Straight Pool and One Pocket and it was a toss up at 9-Ball (I'd have to bet Rempe though). Only in Banks did Jimmy F. have an advantage.

There is a reason that Rempe had such a stellar tournament record. He was a great pool player. Jimmy Fusco was also very good but never reached those heights, more by choice than anything else. Jimmy F. chose not to travel all over the country and follow the tournament circuit everywhere. He was content to stay close to home and let players come to him. A pretty smart decision I would say. When he did travel though he had some surprisingly good results. He won the Sands tourney with all the top players the one year he went all the way to Reno, and he won quite a few of the big regional events on the East Coast. He was Eastern States champion more than once.

In conclusion it's not clear cut who would win if they played, but I have a feeling any time they matched up in a tournament (9-Ball, 14.1 or One Pocket) the line had Rempe favored slightly. Maybe he was a 6-5 (or 7-5) choice to win. Bottom line you are talking about two of the best players of their generation. But one of them was an International champion (Rempe), winning tournaments all over the globe (he was several times the English Eight Ball champion and went further in Snooker than any other American before or since). His record speaks for itself. It's no accident he is in the billiards Hall of Fame.


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Mutual Respect....common sense
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Mutual Respect....common sense - 11-10-2019, 05:46 AM

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Fusco would never play Rempe even in any rotation game for cash, never!
Many top players had someone, somewhere that played so close to their speed, so they just became great friends, this had a similar feel. How can yah not like hanging around JF? GREAT LIFE ATTITUDE like Liscotti.

What's also Good about the relationship Was this...you knew the EXACT speed of Many players that you had never played before, $weet Information.


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11-10-2019, 05:55 AM

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Originally Posted by Island Drive View Post
Many top players had someone, somewhere that played so close to their speed, so they just became great friends, this had a similar feel. How can yah not like hanging around JF? GREAT LIFE ATTITUDE like Liscotti.

What's also Good about the relationship Was this...you knew the EXACT speed of Many players that you had never played before, $weet Information.
True that. Many times these guys would tangle once and that would be it, for life! After they had each other's mutual respect the only times they would play would be in a tournament.


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