Go Back   AzBilliards.com > Main Category > Main Forum
Reload this Page International 9-Ball Open for 2020
Reply
Page 3 of 5 123 45
 
Share Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old
  (#31)
iusedtoberich
AzB Silver Member

iusedtoberich has a reputation beyond reputeiusedtoberich has a reputation beyond reputeiusedtoberich has a reputation beyond reputeiusedtoberich has a reputation beyond reputeiusedtoberich has a reputation beyond reputeiusedtoberich has a reputation beyond reputeiusedtoberich has a reputation beyond reputeiusedtoberich has a reputation beyond reputeiusedtoberich has a reputation beyond reputeiusedtoberich has a reputation beyond reputeiusedtoberich has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Online
Posts: 11,471
vCash: 1470
iTrader: 20 / 100%
Join Date: Mar 2004
   
11-18-2019, 12:12 PM

I totally missed the alt break change in the first post until I read the latest thread comments.

Put me down for winner break also. Reason being is its more exciting for the fans. I could care less what the players want. We, the paying fans, should have a bigger say in the rules, IMO

<=== Paying fan who buys many streams.
  
Reply With Quote

Old
  (#32)
Mich
AzB Silver Member
Mich has a reputation beyond reputeMich has a reputation beyond reputeMich has a reputation beyond reputeMich has a reputation beyond reputeMich has a reputation beyond reputeMich has a reputation beyond reputeMich has a reputation beyond reputeMich has a reputation beyond reputeMich has a reputation beyond reputeMich has a reputation beyond reputeMich has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 194
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Jun 2016
   
11-18-2019, 04:13 PM

I kind of like alternate the break because it's more like Tennis--the Serve and Break are big weapons but not the only weapon. When you play alternate the break it puts more pressure on the big breakers to hold serve. I like the tension as players exchange racks. Look at the Predator 10 Ball this year, in the semis and finals all the matches came down to players with excellent breaks failing to hold serve. I like this tweak to the rules for 2020.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#33)
sjm
Stu with the Ko brothers
sjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond repute
 
sjm's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 16,078
vCash: 525
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: May 2003
Location: New York, NY
   
11-18-2019, 05:00 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by iusedtoberich View Post
I totally missed the alt break change in the first post until I read the latest thread comments.

Put me down for winner break also. Reason being is its more exciting for the fans. I could care less what the players want. We, the paying fans, should have a bigger say in the rules, IMO

<=== Paying fan who buys many streams.
Ditto, I also prefer winner breaks, but it seems most of the players prefer
alternate, and the question being addressed was whether the players would come to the event. The Americans will, of course, come and the Europeans, who play this exact same version of nine ball on the Eurotour, should show up in droves. The top Asians are a little harder to predict, but they tend to show up to all WPA sanctioned events.

I'm not to be counted among those who feel ten ball is important in the world of tournament pool. The seven biggest events of the year, in this fan's view, are the WPA World Championship, the Matchroom US Open, the China Open, the All Japan Championships. the World Pool Masters, the World Cup of Pool and the Mosconi Cup. All seven of them play nine ball, the game the fans play, are accustomed to, and enjoy watching.

The only truly great ten ball event of the year is the Bigfoot Challenge at Derby City, because it uses Texas Express rules. Add "call shot" and "ten ball last", and both are required under WPA rules, and this fan gets less interested in watching.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#34)
HawaiianEye
AzB Silver Member
HawaiianEye has a reputation beyond reputeHawaiianEye has a reputation beyond reputeHawaiianEye has a reputation beyond reputeHawaiianEye has a reputation beyond reputeHawaiianEye has a reputation beyond reputeHawaiianEye has a reputation beyond reputeHawaiianEye has a reputation beyond reputeHawaiianEye has a reputation beyond reputeHawaiianEye has a reputation beyond reputeHawaiianEye has a reputation beyond reputeHawaiianEye has a reputation beyond repute
 
HawaiianEye's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 10,699
vCash: 500
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Join Date: Apr 2011
   
11-18-2019, 08:19 PM

I've ALWAYS advocated for winner break, in tournaments and in gambling.

Maybe I'm wrong but, based upon almost everything I've seen during my pool years, it seems that the players who are always advocating alternate breaks are the players who CAN'T break as well and/or run as many packages as their opponent.

Speaking of "races", lets take a mile long race in track. The race is made up of four 1/4-mile laps. Does the person in the lead have to slow down to let the other catch up on each leg and then try to outrun them on the final lap?

No, they get ahead and try to stay ahead. Their opponents have the same opportunity when they get ahead.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#35)
jay helfert
Shoot Pool, not people
jay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond repute
 
jay helfert's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 27,380
vCash: 500
iTrader: 136 / 100%
Join Date: Nov 2004
   
11-18-2019, 08:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjm View Post
Ditto, I also prefer winner breaks, but it seems most of the players prefer
alternate, and the question being addressed was whether the players would come to the event. The Americans will, of course, come and the Europeans, who play this exact same version of nine ball on the Eurotour, should show up in droves. The top Asians are a little harder to predict, but they tend to show up to all WPA sanctioned events.

I'm not to be counted among those who feel ten ball is important in the world of tournament pool. The seven biggest events of the year, in this fan's view, are the WPA World Championship, the Matchroom US Open, the China Open, the All Japan Championships. the World Pool Masters, the World Cup of Pool and the Mosconi Cup. All seven of them play nine ball, the game the fans play, are accustomed to, and enjoy watching.

The only truly great ten ball event of the year is the Bigfoot Challenge at Derby City, because it uses Texas Express rules. Add "call shot" and "ten ball last", and both are required under WPA rules, and this fan gets less interested in watching.
I tend to agree with you here Stu. The biggest and most important pool events are all 9-Ball, so it is the accepted test for greatness in pool today. That said, Ten Ball is a more difficult game and there should be a place for it in pro pool. Greg Sullivan and I created the Bigfoot with just that in mind. He wanted to promote his ten foot tables and I wanted to promote Ten Ball. I also felt that playing Ten Ball just like 9-Ball, with the same rules, was the right way to go. We went round and round about letting the ten ball count on the break and finally agreed that it wouldn't count in the bottom two corner pockets. I still don't like that rule. You see how often the ten ball is made on the break. Maybe once on a good day!

The Bigfoot, with all the elite players, quickly became the most popular event at DCC and still is to this day. That is unless Efren is playing someone One Pocket. The pool world turned out for his big matches at DCC!


http://www.jayhelfert.com/ to order More Pool Wars
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#36)
TheLoneSilencer
AzB Silver Member
TheLoneSilencer has a reputation beyond reputeTheLoneSilencer has a reputation beyond reputeTheLoneSilencer has a reputation beyond reputeTheLoneSilencer has a reputation beyond reputeTheLoneSilencer has a reputation beyond reputeTheLoneSilencer has a reputation beyond reputeTheLoneSilencer has a reputation beyond reputeTheLoneSilencer has a reputation beyond reputeTheLoneSilencer has a reputation beyond reputeTheLoneSilencer has a reputation beyond reputeTheLoneSilencer has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 712
vCash: 500
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Join Date: Aug 2013
   
11-19-2019, 04:37 AM

I absolutely hate the change to single elimination at the final 32. This bs needs to stop already. Also bring back a true double elimination, players are already there & not like it can't be done timing wise.


Real World Champions: Ko Pin Yi, Carlo Biado, Earl, Alex, Shane... oh wait sorry this list is for ACTUAL World Champions Fargo Rate = Complete Bullshit
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#37)
sjm
Stu with the Ko brothers
sjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond repute
 
sjm's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 16,078
vCash: 525
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: May 2003
Location: New York, NY
   
11-19-2019, 06:53 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jay helfert View Post
I tend to agree with you here Stu. The biggest and most important pool events are all 9-Ball, so it is the accepted test for greatness in pool today. That said, Ten Ball is a more difficult game and there should be a place for it in pro pool. Greg Sullivan and I created the Bigfoot with just that in mind. He wanted to promote his ten foot tables and I wanted to promote Ten Ball. I also felt that playing Ten Ball just like 9-Ball, with the same rules, was the right way to go. We went round and round about letting the ten ball count on the break and finally agreed that it wouldn't count in the bottom two corner pockets. I still don't like that rule. You see how often the ten ball is made on the break. Maybe once on a good day!

The Bigfoot, with all the elite players, quickly became the most popular event at DCC and still is to this day. That is unless Efren is playing someone One Pocket. The pool world turned out for his big matches at DCC!
Agreed that ten ball is a little tougher, but my philosophy is that if pro pool is to be successful in drawing the amateurs as fans, the game played must be one with which the amateurs are greatly familiar. To me, that leaves eight ball and nine ball, and at least for me, where Kevin Trudeau and the IPT had it right was playing eight ball (yes, they were wrong in countless other ways), the game best known to amateurs and the only game that many who play solely in bars have ever seen.

As a fifty three year veteran of the pool halls, I have rarely seen ten ball played other than by highly accomplished players, and even then, I have rarely seen it played at all. Played Texas Express, ten ball is at least intelligible to those that play nine ball, but add "call shot", "ten ball last", "money ball doesn't count on the break" or, worst of all, "call safe", the first two of which are required under WPA rules, and the casual fan is quickly disenfranchised.

Our beloved former poster Edwin Reyes, to paraphrase, said "if it's good for the players, it's good for pro pool." With due respect for a highly respected, and sorely missed AZB poster, Edwin was mistaken. In truth, what's good for pro pool is whatever keeps the fans interested enough to watch it.

The typical amateur has never even heard of ten ball and even fewer know it as played under current WPA rules. As we saw with Bonus Ball, a game of great skill and intrigue, give the fans a game they don't know or play and not that many of them will choose to watch.

Ten ball with call shot has its place in our game as a big action game because the big action matches attract a very different type of fan. Ray Hansen and many others have offered countless exciting ten ball matches for this kind of fan, who tends to be a serious player very familiar with all games played on a pool table.

All that said, although Eurotour plays nine ball, Europe, a few years ago, added ten ball as a discipline in the European Championships. It is possible, though in my view improbable, that this will popularize ten ball among the European amateurs, but only time will tell.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#38)
Keith E.
AzB Silver Member
Keith E. has a reputation beyond reputeKeith E. has a reputation beyond reputeKeith E. has a reputation beyond reputeKeith E. has a reputation beyond reputeKeith E. has a reputation beyond reputeKeith E. has a reputation beyond reputeKeith E. has a reputation beyond reputeKeith E. has a reputation beyond reputeKeith E. has a reputation beyond reputeKeith E. has a reputation beyond reputeKeith E. has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 387
vCash: 500
iTrader: 13 / 100%
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Eastern N.C.
   
11-19-2019, 11:01 AM

Good posting by our members here. With that being said, "Pat, I'll see you there next year." and hope to see some of you gents there as well.

Keith
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#39)
Nostroke
AzB Silver Member

Nostroke has a reputation beyond reputeNostroke has a reputation beyond reputeNostroke has a reputation beyond reputeNostroke has a reputation beyond reputeNostroke has a reputation beyond reputeNostroke has a reputation beyond reputeNostroke has a reputation beyond reputeNostroke has a reputation beyond reputeNostroke has a reputation beyond reputeNostroke has a reputation beyond reputeNostroke has a reputation beyond repute
 
Nostroke's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 11,796
vCash: 10475
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Blog Entries: 21
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: NY and Fla
  Send a message via MSN to Nostroke  
11-19-2019, 03:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by patscue View Post
Its not too early for this announcement!
The International 9-Ball Open continues in 2020.

See some details:
October 25-31, 2020
$500 Entry Fee
$50,000 Added
Alternate Breaks
Races to 10, Double Elimination
Single Elimination when down to 32 players
Sheraton Waterside Norfolk Hotel, Norfolk, VA
WPA Sanctioned
2020 BCA Hall of Fame Banquet

Comments welcome!

Thanks,

alternate breaks?? WHY?
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#40)
sjm
Stu with the Ko brothers
sjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond repute
 
sjm's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 16,078
vCash: 525
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: May 2003
Location: New York, NY
   
11-19-2019, 07:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nostroke View Post
alternate breaks?? WHY?
I'm with you. When there are neutral rackers, alternate break is unnecessary.

That said, though, the Mosocni Cup has neutral rackers and alternate break, so this formula is not without precedent.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#41)
jay helfert
Shoot Pool, not people
jay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond repute
 
jay helfert's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 27,380
vCash: 500
iTrader: 136 / 100%
Join Date: Nov 2004
   
11-19-2019, 07:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjm View Post
Agreed that ten ball is a little tougher, but my philosophy is that if pro pool is to be successful in drawing the amateurs as fans, the game played must be one with which the amateurs are greatly familiar. To me, that leaves eight ball and nine ball, and at least for me, where Kevin Trudeau and the IPT had it right was playing eight ball (yes, they were wrong in countless other ways), the game best known to amateurs and the only game that many who play solely in bars have ever seen.

As a fifty three year veteran of the pool halls, I have rarely seen ten ball played other than by highly accomplished players, and even then, I have rarely seen it played at all. Played Texas Express, ten ball is at least intelligible to those that play nine ball, but add "call shot", "ten ball last", "money ball doesn't count on the break" or, worst of all, "call safe", the first two of which are required under WPA rules, and the casual fan is quickly disenfranchised.

Our beloved former poster Edwin Reyes, to paraphrase, said "if it's good for the players, it's good for pro pool." With due respect for a highly respected, and sorely missed AZB poster, Edwin was mistaken. In truth, what's good for pro pool is whatever keeps the fans interested enough to watch it.

The typical amateur has never even heard of ten ball and even fewer know it as played under current WPA rules. As we saw with Bonus Ball, a game of great skill and intrigue, give the fans a game they don't know or play and not that many of them will choose to watch.

Ten ball with call shot has its place in our game as a big action game because the big action matches attract a very different type of fan. Ray Hansen and many others have offered countless exciting ten ball matches for this kind of fan, who tends to be a serious player very familiar with all games played on a pool table.

All that said, although Eurotour plays nine ball, Europe, a few years ago, added ten ball as a discipline in the European Championships. It is possible, though in my view improbable, that this will popularize ten ball among the European amateurs, but only time will tell.
I've never seen the so called "amateurs" as big pool fans. The people who come to watch the tournaments (and fill the stands) are true fans of the sport. Some play pool and some just like to watch good pool players. Most "league" (amateur) players that I've come in contact with don't even know who the top players are and could care less. If you were ever at the BCA Nationals you saw this phenomena first hand. We had some great pro tournaments there and very few amateur league players bothered to come and watch.

That said, there is a hard core audience that probably numbers in the hundreds of thousands nationally and millions worldwide, who will support a pro pool tournament. Every city, large or small, in this country has people who will come to see top level pool no matter the game. I've seen this take place in tournaments, even in little hick towns. We had crowds of more than 1,000 people watching tournaments in Burlington, Iowa and Huntsville, Alabama just to name two. We packed a 1,500 seat arena in Los Angeles for an All-Around tournament. We were just as crowded for One Pocket and Banks as we were for 9-Ball.

There is a "hidden" group of people that never go to a poolroom, but they will show up if you bring top level competition to an arena near them. Been there, done that.


http://www.jayhelfert.com/ to order More Pool Wars
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#42)
sjm
Stu with the Ko brothers
sjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond repute
 
sjm's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 16,078
vCash: 525
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: May 2003
Location: New York, NY
   
11-19-2019, 07:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jay helfert View Post
I've never seen the so called "amateurs" as big pool fans. The people who come to watch the tournaments (and fill the stands) are true fans of the sport. Some play pool and some just like to watch good pool players. Most "league" (amateur) players that I've come in contact with don't even know who the top players are and could care less. If you were ever at the BCA Nationals you saw this phenomena first hand. We had some great pro tournaments there and very few amateur league players bothered to come and watch.

That said, there is a hard core audience that probably numbers in the hundreds of thousands nationally and millions worldwide, who will support a pro pool tournament. Every city, large or small, in this country has people who will come to see top level pool no matter the game. I've seen this take place in tournaments, even in little hick towns. We had crowds of more than 1,000 people watching tournaments in Burlington, Iowa and Huntsville, Alabama just to name two. We packed a 1,500 seat arena in Los Angeles for an All-Around tournament. We were just as crowded for One Pocket and Banks as we were for 9-Ball.

There is a "hidden" group of people that never go to a poolroom, but they will show up if you bring top level competition to an arena near them. Been there, done that.
Thanks for these insights, Jay. I'd have to say that I never viewed the fan base to which you refer as large enough to grow pro pool upon. Nonetheless, I'll defer to your experience here. Still, I'd offer Super Billiards Expo as a counterexample, for it is the thousands of amateur bar table players in attendance who are the nucleus of the fan base at the pro events staged there. That has been the formula there for over twenty years and it works.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#43)
jay helfert
Shoot Pool, not people
jay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond repute
 
jay helfert's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 27,380
vCash: 500
iTrader: 136 / 100%
Join Date: Nov 2004
   
11-19-2019, 08:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjm View Post
Thanks for these insights, Jay. I'd have to say that I never viewed the fan base to which you refer as large enough to grow pro pool upon. Nonetheless, I'll defer to your experience here. Still, I'd offer Super Billiards Expo as a counterexample, for it is the thousands of amateur bar table players in attendance who are the nucleus of the fan base at the pro events staged there. That has been the formula there for over twenty years and it works.
Leave it to Allen to figure out a way to get them to pop for a few more bucks to watch the pros. Heck, maybe it's part of their entry fee.

Stu, Pool needs to find a rich benefactor who can make the prize money interesting and them secure a television network to show the final matches each week. There are a myriad of cable TV networks that will work. High Stakes Poker was a hit show on the Travel Network! I think it lasted four or five seasons.


http://www.jayhelfert.com/ to order More Pool Wars

Last edited by jay helfert; 11-19-2019 at 08:11 PM.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#44)
Bob Jewett
Northern California

Bob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 16,934
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 12 / 100%
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Berkeley, CA
   
11-19-2019, 08:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jay helfert View Post
I've never seen the so called "amateurs" as big pool fans. The people who come to watch the tournaments (and fill the stands) are true fans of the sport. Some play pool and some just like to watch good pool players. Most "league" (amateur) players that I've come in contact with don't even know who the top players are and could care less. ...
I have an example of this from Jay's LA 2001 Billiard Expo when it was at the hotel next to the Burbank Airport. There were a bunch of league players there in some kind of 8-ball competition. At the same time, Accu-Stats had a six-player round robin invitational 8-ball tournament because they were lacking any 8-ball events at the time. Bustamante, Immonen, Archer, Frank, Griffis, and Reyes.

I happened to come in before the TV matches started and there on the TV table practicing by himself was Efren Reyes. He was setting up tough run outs with clusters and then getting through them. All those 8-ball players in the building and there was only one person who wanted to watch arguably the best player in the world work on tough 8-ball patterns. And that single spectator doesn't even play 8-ball. And it was free to watch.


Bob Jewett
SF Billiard Academy
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#45)
Cameron Smith
is kind of hungry...
Cameron Smith has a reputation beyond reputeCameron Smith has a reputation beyond reputeCameron Smith has a reputation beyond reputeCameron Smith has a reputation beyond reputeCameron Smith has a reputation beyond reputeCameron Smith has a reputation beyond reputeCameron Smith has a reputation beyond reputeCameron Smith has a reputation beyond reputeCameron Smith has a reputation beyond reputeCameron Smith has a reputation beyond reputeCameron Smith has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 4,142
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Wouldn't you like to know
   
11-19-2019, 09:06 PM

Im really sick of alternate break events. I barely watch rotation events anymore because of it. A race to 11 is sufficiently long enough that both players will get there chances. I hope this change isnt because of the 9 pack this year.


I would kill for a nobel peace prize
  
Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 3 of 5 123 45

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.