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07-18-2013, 02:13 PM

Maybe this will help some understand.....from Judge Napolitano - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDuVc...HAWaiT&index=1
  
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07-18-2013, 02:21 PM

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Originally Posted by UGOTDA7 View Post
You should be mad at what he posted because he is 100% wrong......and you should be mad at yourself for falling for a reply that was all quantity over quality.
Me, mad at me? NEVER!!


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Cool 07-18-2013, 02:29 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by UGOTDA7 View Post
Yeah, you certainly did. See the red part above.

Govt does not grant rights - it helps protect them.

Did govt provide you the right of self-defense?

I'm truly surprised to see such a vocal govt hater not understand this simple concept......you know - the simple concept our country was founded on.
Sorry U7, for a minute there I thought Moses was only given 10 commandments.....The Founders, in conjunction with their belief in a creator, laid out what "natural rights" they believed every citizen of our new land should have. They were in essence, or at least in my opinion, using their faith/s as a guide for the template/s they called the U.S. Constitution, Bill of RIGHTS, etc.....


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07-18-2013, 02:43 PM

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Originally Posted by j2pac View Post
Sorry U7, for a minute there I thought Moses was only given 10 commandments.....The Founders, in conjunction with their belief in a creator, laid out what "natural rights" they believed every citizen of our new land should have. They were in essence, or at least in my opinion, using their faith/s as a guide for the template/s they called the U.S. Constitution, Bill of RIGHTS, etc.....
We have rights by our existence. Govt helps protect those rights. Govt does not grant or give us our rights. What he said earlier is completely bassackwards.

A simple example - do I lose my right to self-defense if I go to Mexico, Iran, North Korea, Russia, wherever? No.

However, since someone wanted to a smarty-pants earlier and quote the founding fathers.....but without understanding what he quoted let's look at the critical part he left out - in big red font again just because.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
  
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07-18-2013, 04:07 PM

The thing I find amusing is no one knows (except those in the loop of course) what kind of data they are collecting, what they are doing with the data, or really anything at all about the entire program.There is no way to verify what they are saying, so you have to take it on faith they are telling the truth.

It came to light during this saga that the head honcho got in front of Congress and lied to them, but he deemed it (and I'm paraphrasing here) the most truthful lie he could tell. He could have simply told them that he could not inform them of the scope of this thing due to national security, but he chose to lie.

Now I don't know about anyone else, but the head of the NSA's explanation does little to instill confidence that they are all of a sudden telling the truth. Yes sir, they all of a sudden got a flash of honesty and are telling the truth. I think they are typically doing what those in Washington do when they get caught doing something that might be looked upon with disfavor by the American public.....lie, cheat, steal.....say anything and everything to get the monkey off their backs. We all know those in DC will do what ever it takes to get it to get the heat off of themselves.

Me, I still don't believe the public is getting the full scope of this little project. The other parts are of "national security" so they have again, told us the most truthful lie possible.
  
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07-18-2013, 04:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by UGOTDA7 View Post
We have rights by our existence. Govt helps protect those rights. Govt does not grant or give us our rights. What he said earlier is completely bassackwards.

A simple example - do I lose my right to self-defense if I go to Mexico, Iran, North Korea, Russia, wherever? No.

However, since someone wanted to a smarty-pants earlier and quote the founding fathers.....but without understanding what he quoted let's look at the critical part he left out - in big red font again just because.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
I understand where you're going with this but...it is also plausible that certain "rights" or freedoms that you enjoy here in the States, you may very well not have in another country....So yes, you are in my opinion partially correct. Some "rights" or freedoms that you have are "God" given, some are freedoms that you may or may not have depending upon your country of origin. Also, if you believe in creator based rights, who grants those rights in the event that you are an atheist?


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07-18-2013, 04:58 PM

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Originally Posted by j2pac View Post
I understand where you're going with this but...it is also plausible that certain "rights" or freedoms that you enjoy here in the States, you may very well not have in another country....So yes, you are in my opinion partially correct. Some "rights" or freedoms that you have are "God" given, some are freedoms that you may or may not have depending upon your country of origin. Also, if you believe in creator based rights, who grants those rights in the event that you are an atheist?
You're kind of missing the point.

Every human has rights by virtue of being a human - these rights don't need a religious foundation, it doesn't matter where you are, and it doesn't need any permission from anybody or anything. You have them by mere virtue of your existence.

I'll stick with the self-defense example (but Judge Napolitano gives more in that video) - I have had that since being born, have had it at all times, have had it everywhere I go, still have it, will always have it, will not give up that right until I die......and it never took anybody, anything, and especially not any govt to grant this right to me. And every single person on the planet has this right.......even atheists.
  
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07-18-2013, 05:05 PM

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Originally Posted by UGOTDA7 View Post
You're kind of missing the point.
Every human has rights by virtue of being a human - these rights don't need a religious foundation, it doesn't matter where you are, and it doesn't need any permission from anybody or anything. You have them by mere virtue of your existence.

I'll stick with the self-defense example (but Judge Napolitano gives more in that video) - I have had that since being born, have had it at all times, have had it everywhere I go, still have it, will always have it, will not give up that right until I die......and it never took anybody, anything, and especially not any govt to grant this right to me. And every single person on the planet has this right.......even atheists.
I don't believe so...I DO partially agree with you. I also believe that as a society, people also have some freedoms, or "rights" that they agree on as a principle of socially accepted "norms" or laws. Conversely, there are things that as a society, and according to the rule of law, you most certainly do NOT have the right to do...You may have the ability to do whatever you wish, but having the ability to do something, does not necessarily qualify it as a right, IMO...


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07-18-2013, 05:17 PM

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Originally Posted by j2pac View Post
I don't believe so...I DO partially agree with you. I also believe that as a society, people also have some freedoms, or "rights" that they agree on as a principle of socially accepted "norms" or laws. Conversely, there are things that as a society, and according to the rule of law, you most certainly do NOT have the right to do...You may have the ability to do whatever you wish, but having the ability to do something, does not necessarily qualify it as a right, IMO...
Then those are not rights. It's like the old saying that the right of my fist ends at your face. Another example is the right to life - what govt granted this to me? Who gave their permission (besides my parents)? I think you're confusing rights with customs, agreements, contracts, etc.

But yes, in truth we have accepted compromises of our rights as part of living in a society - look up social contract theory if you want to read more about it. That's part of the angst these days is the ongoing erosion of our rights at the hands of govt......which is why I'm surprised that one of our more vocal govt haters misspoke earlier in the fashion that he did - and why I jumped in.

I've always liked this practical explanation from Delawho???:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showth...=rights&page=7

Something is not a "right" when it is taken from someone else.In order for health care to be a right one must force someone to provide that health care free of charge to those who cannot afford it. Taking without compensation for what you are taking is theft. Forcing someone to act against thier will or their own best interest is to enslave.

Rights are natural born or God given (depending on your belief system) and do not require any action by any individual. Life is a right as one can have life without infringement upon anothers life.

Liberty is the freedom to live that life as you see fit, and is a right up to the point that your liberty causes direct harm to another individual.

Property and the ability to dispose of it as you see fit is also a right. If a man creates a fishing pole and net in order to feed himself they are his to do with what he pleases. He is under no obligation to share his creation or the resulting fish with anyone. A man builts shelter to keep him from the cold and a safe place to sleep is not obligated to share that with anyone, nor to share the fire that he started and fuels. It is his right to manage the sweat from his brow and what he creates with his own labor. Fortunately man has learned that when we act in concert we achieve more and that shared labor is easier and more beneficial than individual labor. That is not to say that one must share or work in concert, but that it is in a man's best interest to do so. This is the root of compassion and caring for ones fellow man. Knowing the difficulty of life and living and feeling a sense of shared value and common purpose has been what has raised society, not the group taking what they want by force.

Healthcare is a commodity. It is something of value in limited supply. It requires a lot of individual effort to become a Dr or nurse or technologist. It takes substantial time and effort to develope the treatments and machines of modern healthcare. To then take that time and effort and distribute it without the consent of those making the investment (time and energy) is theft. Forcing someone to act against their will (treating somone for free, or treating this one instead of that one) is to enslave that person no matter how noble the motivation is. Fact is that healthcare costs something, is in limited supply (you can only take so many x rays on an x ray machine in a day) and in demand make it by definition a commodity not a right.

General welfare means that we do not infringe on a persons natural born rights. It means that we act to protect those rights against the sort of theft you seem to be advocating in asserting healthcare is a right.
  
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07-18-2013, 05:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by UGOTDA7 View Post
Yeah, you certainly did. See the red part above.

Govt does not grant rights - it helps protect them.

Did govt provide you the right of self-defense?

I'm truly surprised to see such a vocal govt hater not understand this simple concept......you know - the simple concept our country was founded on.
Yes I do, in fact I posted those words, remember?

And I posted them intentionally and for a reason. I was hoping that they would catch your attention and keep you from screaming, bolding, redding, and basically being the loudest man in the room, believing that everyone would think that you are not only the boss, but also right.

Besides, your attempt to alter the discussion from the basic civil rights and liberties of US citizens and their violation, to the purpose of government and the right of the citizens to abolish or alter a government which has become destructive, only reaffirms that you fully understand that you spoke without understanding and now you're attacking in order to distract attention.

The Constitution of the United States, being a legal document, not only outlined a framework for a national legislative system, but also an identifiable statute reflecting the legal guidelines imposed with regard to the relationship between the United States Federal Government and its collective citizens.

It does, in fact, grant citizens additional legal rights other than the ones granted by the Creator, which are stipulated, granted, acknowledged, or whichever semantic you choose to argue over like # 17th: The people can elect US Senators. 1913., which God failed to address.

J
  
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07-18-2013, 05:52 PM

I trust Snowden more than obama.
At least he's honest about his agenda...


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07-18-2013, 06:17 PM

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Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
I trust Snowden more than obama.
At least he's honest about his agenda...
Well...You do have a point. Be well my brother....
j2


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07-18-2013, 06:17 PM

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Yes I do, in fact I posted those words, remember?

And I posted them intentionally and for a reason. I was hoping that they would catch your attention and keep you from screaming, bolding, redding, and basically being the loudest man in the room, believing that everyone would think that you are not only the boss, but also right.

Besides, your attempt to alter the discussion from the basic civil rights and liberties of US citizens and their violation, to the purpose of government and the right of the citizens to abolish or alter a government which has become destructive, only reaffirms that you fully understand that you spoke without understanding and now you're attacking in order to distract attention.

The Constitution of the United States, being a legal document, not only outlined a framework for a national legislative system, but also an identifiable statute reflecting the legal guidelines imposed with regard to the relationship between the United States Federal Government and its collective citizens.

It does, in fact, grant citizens additional legal rights other than the ones granted by the Creator, which are stipulated, granted, acknowledged, or whichever semantic you choose to argue over like # 17th: The people can elect US Senators. 1913., which God failed to address.

J
Posting words and understanding them are two different things.

You're just flat out wrong when you say this:

....both the basic rights and liberties granted to all U.S. citizens by our constitution and it's Bill Of Rights.....

And it betrays the depth of your lack of understanding about rights, how our govt and country was founded, and how it is supposed to work.

Free men preceded and instituted our govt to protect us and our rights.....not the other way around in order to get permission from the govt to remain free and exercise our rights.

And no, I'm not altering anything - those words above are yours.....not mine and what I'm addressing.

And no, no semantics with the founding fathers (it was you brought them in remember?) - I quoted the Declaration of Independence to include the key part which you left out.......that goes to the understanding thing again.

I suggest you go back and watch the Napolitano video.....maybe it will sink in.

Or you could also just go Google where do rights come from and educate yourself at your own pace.

I'll tell you what - when you can tell me which govt granted me the right to self-defense or right to life then you might be on to something.....until then.
  
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07-18-2013, 06:20 PM

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Originally Posted by UGOTDA7 View Post
Posting words and understanding them are two different things.

You're just flat out wrong when you say this:

....both the basic rights and liberties granted to all U.S. citizens by our constitution and it's Bill Of Rights.....

And it betrays the depth of your lack of understanding about rights, how our govt and country was founded, and how it is supposed to work.

Free men preceded and instituted our govt to protect us and our rights.....not the other way around in order to get permission from the govt to remain free and exercise our rights.

And no, I'm not altering anything - those words above are yours.....not mine.

And no, no semantics with the founding fathers (it was you brought them in remember?) - I quoted the Declaration of Independence to include the key part which you left out.......that goes to the understanding thing again.

I suggest you go back and watch the Napolitano video.....maybe it will sink in.

Or you could also just go Google where do rights come from and educate yourself at your own pace.

I'll tell you what - when you can tell me which govt granted me the right to self-defense or right to life then you might be on to something.....until then.
You act as if your examples are the only "rights" in existence... There is more to this, than you seem willing to concede.


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07-18-2013, 06:37 PM

Its a shame they outlawed dueling.
A lot political problems could be solved quickly.


Keep your head down and admire the shot.


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