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Artimis cushions upside down
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Artimis cushions upside down - 10-25-2014, 09:52 PM

I was told by a table mechanic at Clifton Billiards that Diamond installs Artimis cushions upside down, with the cloth on the bottom side. Can this be true?
  
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10-26-2014, 07:17 AM

Not true, cloth is topside, always has been since they started using the Artemis cushions.
  
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10-26-2014, 08:24 AM

Which way is the cloth installed on a 3C table? I recall hearing something similar that maybe the pool vs 3C installation is the opposite, but not certain.
  
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10-26-2014, 08:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by iusedtoberich View Post
Which way is the cloth installed on a 3C table? I recall hearing something similar that maybe the pool vs 3C installation is the opposite, but not certain.
A long time ago, pool cushions use to be turned upside down and used for billiards because the balls are much larger, so a higher nose height was needed, and that solved that problem. But billiards has evolved over the years, and today's best billiard tables use a much higher density cushion, to hard for pocket pool, but great for billiards. The Artemis intercontinental K55 cushions are used for playing straight rail billiards, where banking a lot of rails in not nearly as important as it is when playing 3C.
  
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10-26-2014, 09:41 AM

Thank you Glen. A follow up question:

Is the Artemis Intercontinental K55 installed on today's top 3C tables? If so, which way is it installed?
  
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10-26-2014, 11:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by iusedtoberich View Post
Thank you Glen. A follow up question:

Is the Artemis Intercontinental K55 installed on today's top 3C tables? If so, which way is it installed?
No, it's not used for 3C tables.
  
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10-26-2014, 12:06 PM

Hey Glen,

You and I have discussed this issue for many years now. As I have related to you, I've been installing the intercontinental 55 cushions curved side on top with the canvas on the bottom for many years.

Early on, when I was replacing cushions, with Artemis, on the older Diamonds I found they played short and quick unless the liners were modified. By replacing the cushions with the curved side on the top, they played longer off the cushions and still had very good speed with out being so lighting fast off the cushion. I didn't have to modify the liners at all and all the tables played and still play great. I also install the Artemis cushions on the Brunswick Gold threes and fours with the curved side on top and the canvas on the bottom with equally good results.

We had talked about setting up two tables side by side, with the cushions installed both ways and conduct some tests. That's really not applicable now that Diamond has changed to the blue label rails. I do think it would be interesting to try the cushions on a pair of older Gold Crowns just to judge the difference in play.

I'm not saying I'm right or that anybody else is wrong, just sharing my experience with dozens of re-rubber jobs using Artemis cushions. I also install the Kleber cushion (P-59) the same way.

Nice to see you back posting again. Are you still in California? Give me a call when you are heading back east.

Jay

Last edited by A-1 billiards; 10-26-2014 at 12:14 PM.
  
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10-26-2014, 09:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by A-1 billiards View Post
Hey Glen,

You and I have discussed this issue for many years now. As I have related to you, I've been installing the intercontinental 55 cushions curved side on top with the canvas on the bottom for many years.

Early on, when I was replacing cushions, with Artemis, on the older Diamonds I found they played short and quick unless the liners were modified. By replacing the cushions with the curved side on the top, they played longer off the cushions and still had very good speed with out being so lighting fast off the cushion. I didn't have to modify the liners at all and all the tables played and still play great. I also install the Artemis cushions on the Brunswick Gold threes and fours with the curved side on top and the canvas on the bottom with equally good results.

We had talked about setting up two tables side by side, with the cushions installed both ways and conduct some tests. That's really not applicable now that Diamond has changed to the blue label rails. I do think it would be interesting to try the cushions on a pair of older Gold Crowns just to judge the difference in play.

I'm not saying I'm right or that anybody else is wrong, just sharing my experience with dozens of re-rubber jobs using Artemis cushions. I also install the Kleber cushion (P-59) the same way.

Nice to see you back posting again. Are you still in California? Give me a call when you are heading back east.

Jay
Jay...your 100% right on everything you just stated.
The cushion with hump on top play the best....the only way I do them.
Mark Gregory
  
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Hum - 10-27-2014, 05:21 AM

..........

Don,t know shit?
  
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10-27-2014, 06:49 AM

Everyone has their own way of doing things, I just do what I feel is right, and have no issues with the Artemis cushions in how I install them what so ever.

PS, all cushions play alright when they're installed with new cloth, time tells how they play later on once the cloth is broken in, but I never install the cushions without first correcting the sub-rails to fit.

Last edited by realkingcobra; 10-27-2014 at 06:52 AM.
  
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10-27-2014, 09:57 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by A-1 billiards View Post
Hey Glen,

You and I have discussed this issue for many years now. As I have related to you, I've been installing the intercontinental 55 cushions curved side on top with the canvas on the bottom for many years.

Early on, when I was replacing cushions, with Artemis, on the older Diamonds I found they played short and quick unless the liners were modified. By replacing the cushions with the curved side on the top, they played longer off the cushions and still had very good speed with out being so lighting fast off the cushion. I didn't have to modify the liners at all and all the tables played and still play great. I also install the Artemis cushions on the Brunswick Gold threes and fours with the curved side on top and the canvas on the bottom with equally good results.

We had talked about setting up two tables side by side, with the cushions installed both ways and conduct some tests. That's really not applicable now that Diamond has changed to the blue label rails. I do think it would be interesting to try the cushions on a pair of older Gold Crowns just to judge the difference in play.

I'm not saying I'm right or that anybody else is wrong, just sharing my experience with dozens of re-rubber jobs using Artemis cushions. I also install the Kleber cushion (P-59) the same way.

Nice to see you back posting again. Are you still in California? Give me a call when you are heading back east.

Jay
Is there a simple explanation on why this is Jay ?
I was told by a local pool hall owner who is a very good player, even the blue label Diamond has a very quick initial rebound too.


  
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10-27-2014, 11:12 AM

There's a lot of factors that can influence how a pool table plays to the untrained eye of the person playing, such as the balls, cloth, humidity, dirty table...the list goes on and on, but for the most part, people almost always assume it's the cushions.
  
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10-27-2014, 04:08 PM

Let me try and understand what every one is saying about the Artemis cushions, in all your opinions, Diamond is mounting them upside down, and according to every one saying so, because they don't play as good unless they're mounted hump side up. Then could anyone explain to me, that if Diamond and myself are wrong, then please explain why Shane just won his third straight US Open playing on tables that according to all you who oppose the way Diamond mounts these cushions? The greatest pool players on earth are playing banks, 9 ball, 10 ball, 8 ball, 14.1 and every other known game of pool with the cushions mounted the way Diamond and myself recommend them to be mounted....as WELL as the Artemis company. So, all you must know something I don't know, because I just don't have any problems with them, nor do any of the customers that I've rebuilt pool tables for and installed the Artemis cushions on. World beaters are playing on them at "DCC" and have no complaints about how they play. The 10' big foot challenge tables have them installed as well, best players in the world don't have any complaints, so what's the problem? Trust me, if ANYONE complained to Greg Sullivan about the cushions and how they played, Greg would be all over it looking for a replacement cushion, but he's not, so how come?

Glen

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10-27-2014, 06:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by realkingcobra View Post
Let me try and understand what every one is saying about the Artemis cushions, in all your opinions, Diamond is mounting them upside down, and according to every one saying so, because they don't play as good unless they're mounted hump side up. Then could anyone explain to me, that if Diamond and myself are wrong, then please explain why Shane just won his third straight US Open playing on tables that according to all you who oppose the way Diamond mounts these cushions? The greatest pool players on earth are playing banks, 9 ball, 10 ball, 8 ball, 14.1 and every other known game of pool with the cushions mounted the way Diamond and myself recommend them to be mounted....as WELL as the Artemis company. So, all you must know something I don't know, because I just don't have any problems with them, nor do any of the customers that I've rebuilt pool tables for and installed the Artemis cushions on. World beaters are playing on them at "DCC" and have no complaints about how they play. The 10' big foot challenge tables have them installed as well, best players in the world don't have any complaints, so what's the problem? Trust me, if ANYONE complained to Greg Sullivan about the cushions and how they played, Greg would be all over it looking for a replacement cushion, but he's not, so how come?

Glen
Glen...I'm not going to totally diagree with you....but you need to remember....all top players will adjust to any equipment....I grew up playing on some of the worst shit known to man.
A player makes adjustments on every table....speed of the cushions....speed of the cloth....watch a player warming up....testing the reaction of the rails and cloth.
Johnny Archer for one plays bad on rails that spring....as do so many other top players....but when the players can hit the balls with a firm stoke and not lose control of the cue ball....they love it.
The Artemis cushions play springy with the flat side up.....and not as springy with the hump side up...now there has to be some mods to the sub rail for any cushion to not spring....or get trapped by the cushions of any brand.
Artemis cushions are soft cushions....Brunswick are harder cushions....the mm of the nose of the cushions are different.
Artemis takes more English...and is livelier.....than Brunswick.
The blue label is still fast...not as bad as the red label....but not 100% correct yet.....that's my oppinion....don't mean I'm 100% right....but as a has been player(lol) there still to lively....now the flat side up is going to sping the balls..the hump side up helps to pinch or trap the ball and slow the ball.
The flat side up on the billiard tables help the balls to continue to travel.....you want to get more rails playing billiards.....but you want the ball to slow in pool.....I'm not correcting you...cause you already know this.
The hump side always mp need to go up....on any pool table.
Another thing that comes into play is the wood the rails are made of....the harder the wood....the less the rail absorbs vibrations...that's why popular rails play well....no just cause the wood is cheaper....they absorb vibration and that will slow the balls.
When I change the rail bolts on the GC4 with steel ones and steel inserts....the rail plays faster.

Mark Gregory
  
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10-27-2014, 10:45 PM

You and I talk about this all the time, we both see each others reasons for why we do what we do. My question is to everyone else installing the cushions hump side up, when for the most part all that they're doing is changing cushions, no rail work is being done to make the cushions play at their best. A lot of mechanic's have no idea what they're doing replacing cushions, which is why there's so many GC's around with K66 or even "Accufast" cushions on them, yet they feel like they know what they're talking about when it comes to how cushions should play....LOL
  
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