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Maximum Throw at Different Speeds and Angles Video
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CueAndMe
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Maximum Throw at Different Speeds and Angles Video - 10-26-2018, 09:43 PM

It took me a couple of months to put this together. I wanted to find out what throw ranges to incorporate into my printable practice tools, so I recorded this experiment. I finally finished editing it tonight and got it up on YouTube. I actually learned a few things, and I think you'll be surprised at the results as well. Check it out!

https://youtu.be/IF-xJ953hBc

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Last edited by CueAndMe; 10-27-2018 at 12:41 PM. Reason: Smaller Image
  
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10-27-2018, 12:56 AM

Lots of good stuff to think about here. Thanks for putting in the work.

I'm assuming your testing was done with polished, like-new balls. Did you do any testing with dirty balls? I'd assume that that would amplify the throw by a lot.
  
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Patrick Johnson
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10-27-2018, 01:40 AM

Very interesting - thanks.

One observation: the small gap between the “ghost ball” and OB avoids “overthrow” that would be caused by static friction between frozen balls. I don’t know if your theory of different effective masses is true or not (but it’s an interesting idea).

I think Dr. Dave did a similar test with similar (though maybe not as detailed) results.

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chgo

Last edited by Patrick Johnson; 10-27-2018 at 01:42 AM.
  
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10-27-2018, 06:45 AM

Thanks for doing this experiment. I know it may not be 100% scientifically accurate, but I think at the very least, it gets in the ballpark of being correct when thinking about throw in regards to firmness of hit and shot angle. I know for myself, when I've had to throw balls, I've been uncertain about what speed to hit the shot to get max throw. It's interesting to see how angle can affect the amount of throw as well. Thanks!
  
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Patrick Johnson
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10-27-2018, 08:08 AM

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Originally Posted by Lynch View Post
Thanks for doing this experiment. I know it may not be 100% scientifically accurate, but I think at the very least, it gets in the ballpark of being correct when thinking about throw in regards to firmness of hit and shot angle. I know for myself, when I've had to throw balls, I've been uncertain about what speed to hit the shot to get max throw. It's interesting to see how angle can affect the amount of throw as well. Thanks!
Like a car's tires "burning rubber" against the pavement with too much acceleration, the friction between the balls is reduced with too much speed - this can be caused by CB speed, cut angle and even the amount of side spin. For instance, maximum centerball throw is achieved with a slow half ball hit - adding any inside spin to that actually reduces throw.

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Bob Jewett
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10-27-2018, 09:04 AM

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Originally Posted by bluepepper View Post
It took me a couple of months to put this together. I wanted to find out what throw ranges to incorporate into my printable practice tools, so I recorded this experiment. I finally finished editing it tonight and got it up on YouTube. I actually learned a few things, and I think you'll be surprised at the results as well. Check it out!
...
Below is a plot I made a long time ago about throw versus speed and angle. It was included in my June, 1995 Billiards Digest article which you can find here:
http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html

I think you will find a lot of additional info on Dr. Dave's website along with the theory that explains the very strange shape of the curves and the speed dependence.

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10-27-2018, 12:29 PM

Wow, Bob! I'm a little embarrassed that I'm suggesting to others that they read your articles, and I somehow missed this. I'm also stunned that I used such a similar setup. Maybe I did read this article at some point in the past and it was buried in my subconscious. I apologize that I didn't acknowledge it. I'll go and add a link in the YouTube video description.

Hopefully the video at least renews interest in the subject and offers a slightly different "moving-picture" version of your experiment. It also offers slightly different results, although a lot turns out to be very similar.

Maybe conditions are a factor? I used the Aramith Tournament (Duramith) Balls. Do you recall what balls you used?

I'm about to embark on another experiment to show minimum throw using the golf tee guards on my RotoThroTractor and Gauntlet tools. Did you ever test for minimum throw, and if so, how did you set it up?

I'm not looking to repeat tests that were already done. I actually want to get back to preparing and sharing the system that began this whole journey, but I figure finding minimum throw is a worthwhile task. And for the sake of completeness, a minimum throw video would complement the maximum throw video.

Thanks again for all of your contributions over the years!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Below is a plot I made a long time ago about throw versus speed and angle. It was included in my June, 1995 Billiards Digest article which you can find here:
http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html

I think you will find a lot of additional info on Dr. Dave's website along with the theory that explains the very strange shape of the curves and the speed dependence.
  
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10-27-2018, 12:45 PM

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Originally Posted by Mick View Post
Lots of good stuff to think about here. Thanks for putting in the work.

I'm assuming your testing was done with polished, like-new balls. Did you do any testing with dirty balls? I'd assume that that would amplify the throw by a lot.
Yes, the balls are about 2 years old, but they are in like new condition. I polished them with Aramith Ball Cleaner about a week before I took the video. Sadly, no I didn't try testing dirty balls or different sets of balls. Maybe someday I'll have access to more sets and access to more energy.
  
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10-27-2018, 12:49 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Very interesting - thanks.

One observation: the small gap between the “ghost ball” and OB avoids “overthrow” that would be caused by static friction between frozen balls. I don’t know if your theory of different effective masses is true or not (but it’s an interesting idea).

I think Dr. Dave did a similar test with similar (though maybe not as detailed) results.

pj
chgo
Hey, Patrick. It's been a long time since we've last conversed. Good to see you! Yeah, I don't know if I was right to leave that gap for the reasons I suggest. But it felt like the right thing to do? Not very scientific, I know. If you have a link to Dr. Dave's test, I'd love to see it.
  
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10-27-2018, 12:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynch View Post
Thanks for doing this experiment. I know it may not be 100% scientifically accurate, but I think at the very least, it gets in the ballpark of being correct when thinking about throw in regards to firmness of hit and shot angle. I know for myself, when I've had to throw balls, I've been uncertain about what speed to hit the shot to get max throw. It's interesting to see how angle can affect the amount of throw as well. Thanks!
You're quite welcome! I think sometimes throw could be why we miss a shot that otherwise we were dead on to make. So knowing when to expect it is a great sense to have.
  
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Patrick Johnson
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10-27-2018, 04:36 PM

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Originally Posted by bluepepper View Post
You're quite welcome! I think sometimes throw could be why we miss a shot that otherwise we were dead on to make. So knowing when to expect it is a great sense to have.
When and how much. Knowing what maximizes throw (moderate speed/spin/angle) also teaches how to minimize it - or use it.

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Last edited by Patrick Johnson; 10-27-2018 at 05:33 PM.
  
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10-27-2018, 08:35 PM

I found an article on Dr. Dave's site dated September 2006.
https://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_a...006/sept06.pdf

His graph looks very similar to both Bob's and mine, but the three graphs have their differences. For soft shots, both Bob and Dr. Dave peaked at 6° or more throw, whereas I barely got over 5°. Theirs subsided, whereas mine remained very near 5° for all angles from just above 30° all the way up to 80°. Maybe it had to do with the gap I left between the balls?

It looks like the two angles with the most throw for both Dr. Dave and me were 35° and 40°. And Bob's were about 28° and 37°. Averaging this data suggests that the 3/8-ball hit has more throw potential than 1/2-ball for soft shots.
  
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10-28-2018, 06:18 AM

I found your work very interesting.

I started playing pool 73 years ago.

I started playing with clay balls and later Centeniels.

Object ball throw did not seem to be an issue until Arimath balls and Simonis cloth was introduced.

Do you have any opinion about that?

Bill S.
  
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10-28-2018, 06:32 AM

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Originally Posted by bstroud View Post
I found your work very interesting.

I started playing pool 73 years ago.

I started playing with clay balls and later Centeniels.

Object ball throw did not seem to be an issue until Arimath balls and Simonis cloth was introduced.

Do you have any opinion about that?

Bill S.
Cloth has nothing to do with it. I’m pretty sure clay balls threw more than modern ones.

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10-28-2018, 08:12 AM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Cloth has nothing to do with it. I’m pretty sure clay balls threw more than modern ones.

pj
chgo
Not at all that I ever saw.

I really think it is the cloth

Bill S.
  
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