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Pro Sports - Fouls Called on Yourself - 10-06-2019, 10:35 AM

I've seen numerous responses concerning the ethical decision to call a foul on yourself during a pool tournament. It seems to be praised here. Just wondering... pro football...should a lineman inform the refs that he was holding and that he would like a 10 yard penalty assessed? Just curious if all "Pro" sports should be held to the same standards or they are just not the same thing based on 'the cash' involved.

My example: I watched an 8-ball tournament match where one player allowed the opponent to shoot the 8 in before noticing their last solid was still on the table. Poor sportsmanship? Gamesmanship?

Thoughts...?
  
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Pro Sports - Fouls Called on Yourself
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Pro Sports - Fouls Called on Yourself - 10-06-2019, 10:48 AM

I’d say it depends on who the opponent and what the situation is.

I missed a foul one night and overheard my opponent’s teammates talking about it after I got to the table took my shot. Lost all respect for the guy and will do the same to him if I ever get a chance.


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10-06-2019, 11:11 AM

On average, one should adhere to maximum integrity. It's a principle to which many subscribe. The rules don't require it, and pros all too often set the wrong example, but this is as it should be.

I'll nearly always mention it if an opponent is about to shoot the wrong ball (or hit the wrong cue ball in 3-cushion), but if my opponent has a track record of playing with less than the appropriate standards of sportsmanship, I might just say nothing.

One of the most ridiculous notions, which is subscribed to vigilantly by many, in our game is that if you snooze, you lose. Most believe that if you commit an infraction, if opponent wasn't watching, you might just get away with it. Nobody is required to watch while opponent shoots, and when one doesn't watch, it cuts both ways. Anyone who subscribes to and practices "if you snooze, you lose" has no right, in my opinion, to ever expect any assistance in helping them to avoid infractions.

Guess what I'm saying is that, in the long run, a player should expect the same sportsmanship and competitive courtesies from opponents that they themselves customarily offer.

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10-06-2019, 11:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarTableMan View Post
I've seen numerous responses concerning the ethical decision to call a foul on yourself during a pool tournament. It seems to be praised here. Just wondering... pro football...should a lineman inform the refs that he was holding and that he would like a 10 yard penalty assessed? Just curious if all "Pro" sports should be held to the same standards or they are just not the same thing based on 'the cash' involved.

My example: I watched an 8-ball tournament match where one player allowed the opponent to shoot the 8 in before noticing their last solid was still on the table. Poor sportsmanship? Gamesmanship?

Thoughts...?
If the shooter doesn't notice he has a ball on the table, well he has to have his head up where the sun don't shine. He is obviously not paying much attention to the game. Probably too busy on his phone texting and shit would be a good guess. If you can't pay attention for one game, that is your fault.
  
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10-06-2019, 11:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarTableMan View Post
I've seen numerous responses concerning the ethical decision to call a foul on yourself during a pool tournament. It seems to be praised here. Just wondering... pro football...should a lineman inform the refs that he was holding and that he would like a 10 yard penalty assessed? Just curious if all "Pro" sports should be held to the same standards or they are just not the same thing based on 'the cash' involved.

My example: I watched an 8-ball tournament match where one player allowed the opponent to shoot the 8 in before noticing their last solid was still on the table. Poor sportsmanship? Gamesmanship?

Thoughts...?
I call all fouls on myself instantly, but I will not help someone play better. Whats the difference if my opponent is going to use outside english when the shot definitely calls for inside? If the shot needs to be hit softly, but I see my opponent winding up to hit it hard, or it needs to be stroked like crazy, but I see his warm up strokes are soft? Should I stop him from making these mistakes? Of course not, then why the F would I stop him from hitting the wrong ball? Because its a certain foul? Isn't that what we are after when we play safeties?

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10-06-2019, 02:14 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick0595 View Post
I’d say it depends on who the opponent and what the situation is.

I missed a foul one night and overheard my opponent’s teammates talking about it after I got to the table took my shot. Lost all respect for the guy and will do the same to him if I ever get a chance.
The problem with lowering your own ethical standard down to that of an unsavory opponent’s, is much like not bothering with your turn signals when driving on a deserted road. If you get out of the habit, ‘Murphy’ will likely come calling.
Then, someday when losing and under pressure, you may do something despicable you might very well regret, and be unable to live down.
  
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10-06-2019, 02:33 PM

Interesting topic...

One thing I do know, if there are no officials or refs watching, no matter what sport, people will be more honest.

When there are officials involved, people will naturally not admit to anything and feel if the ref doesn't catch it, it shouldn't be called.

Which is why I hate when pool tournaments are run with only one or two officials/refs for several pool tables. It actually, makes things worse than if they just have no officials/refs.

But I know a LO around where I am who does this (probably just doesn't want to hire enough people to do this) at his APA citywides and again, it just makes things worse.


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10-06-2019, 04:21 PM

Give 'em all a Participation Trophy and call it good.


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10-07-2019, 04:12 AM

Here we go with this again.

Now someone will make the comparison to golf where they call their own fouls which is no comparison because your opponent could be 50 plus yards a way with no ability to see what your doing.. while in pool your standing right beside the table.

For the most part I just play Apa anymore so this doesn’t come up..anyone on your team can call a foul and generally I call it on myself.

I have one BIG EXCEPTION though! If your face is buried into your cell phone while we are playing then f@#$ you I’m not calling anything on myself. Put your phone down and play pool..


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10-07-2019, 06:33 AM

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Originally Posted by DecentShot View Post
I call all fouls on myself instantly, but I will not help someone play better. Whats the difference if my opponent is going to use outside english when the shot definitely calls for inside? If the shot needs to be hit softly, but I see my opponent winding up to hit it hard, or it needs to be stroked like crazy, but I see his warm up strokes are soft? Should I stop him from making these mistakes? Of course not, then why the F would I stop him from hitting the wrong ball? Because its a certain foul? Isn't that what we are after when we safeties?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DynoDan View Post
The problem with lowering your own ethical standard down to that of an unsavory opponent’s, is much like not bothering with your turn signals when driving on a deserted road. If you get out of the habit, ‘Murphy’ will likely come calling.
Then, someday when losing and under pressure, you may do something despicable you might very well regret, and be unable to live down.
I like these two posts....kinda like how I see it.
I call my own fouls....and I was an action guy...I tend to cue real close to the cue ball...
...if you call the foul on yourself....you stop making them.

One of my best friends....he was a good player....but he didn’t depend on gambling..CPA.
....he said to me once...”It’s okay to cheat a cheater.”.....I disagreed....I told him...
“If you cheat a cheater, then you’re letting a scumbag determine your ethics.”


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when in Rome - 10-07-2019, 07:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by pt109 View Post
I like these two posts....kinda like how I see it.
I call my own fouls....and I was an action guy...I tend to cue real close to the cue ball...
...if you call the foul on yourself....you stop making them.

One of my best friends....he was a good player....but he didn’t depend on gambling..CPA.
....he said to me once...”It’s okay to cheat a cheater.”.....I disagreed....I told him...
“If you cheat a cheater, then you’re letting a scumbag determine your ethics.”


I have to admit I was guilty of situational ethics for a few years. When I first started playing I would rigorously call my own fouls even if the other player didn't call theirs.

Then in gambling and traveling a bit, I would let the other player make up and set the rules, then I forced both to play by them. I had a real fondness for beer and in some places after taking a bathroom break on my turn I would come back to the table to find balls moved or missing. It was my shot when I left the table so no way balls were supposed to have moved or been removed. When this crap started, I started playing left handed pool. I pocketed as many balls with my bridge hand as my stick some games! Seemed funny at the time and I have to admit even today I don't feel bad about cheating the cheaters.

Today I am back playing with generally more ethical people and my ethics are where they should be. Does seem like I play at least one person with no ethics when I play in larger tournaments. Slug racks and any other cheat they can get away with. I foolishly called the coin in advance instead of in the air and had the regular at a place just slide the coin on the table instead of flipping it. OK, I can see how this match is going to be, he cheated the coin flip!

While I guess you can say I used to let the scum set my standards I considered it to be a when in Rome thing and went with any weird rule they could dream up and if they cheated I would return the favor. Of course I went back to playing fairly as soon as I quit playing that player. Usually if I found a gambler cheating I never played them again. Sometimes on challenge tables and in tournaments it happened.

I can't help myself, I do find it fun and funny to give the cheaters a dose of their own medicine when I am in the mood. Even more likely, I start playing shape where my ass is facing them for many shots and my body blocks their view of those shots. After the shot I will jerk my head around and look at them like checking to see if they saw something wrong. I only do that to cheaters. Since cheaters are the first to suspect others of cheating it drives them crazy!

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10-07-2019, 10:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootingArts View Post
I have to admit I was guilty of situational ethics for a few years. When I first started playing I would rigorously call my own fouls even if the other player didn't call theirs.

Then in gambling and traveling a bit, I would let the other player make up and set the rules, then I forced both to play by them. I had a real fondness for beer and in some places after taking a bathroom break on my turn I would come back to the table to find balls moved or missing. It was my shot when I left the table so no way balls were supposed to have moved or been removed. When this crap started, I started playing left handed pool. I pocketed as many balls with my bridge hand as my stick some games! Seemed funny at the time and I have to admit even today I don't feel bad about cheating the cheaters.

Today I am back playing with generally more ethical people and my ethics are where they should be. Does seem like I play at least one person with no ethics when I play in larger tournaments. Slug racks and any other cheat they can get away with. I foolishly called the coin in advance instead of in the air and had the regular at a place just slide the coin on the table instead of flipping it. OK, I can see how this match is going to be, he cheated the coin flip!

While I guess you can say I used to let the scum set my standards I considered it to be a when in Rome thing and went with any weird rule they could dream up and if they cheated I would return the favor. Of course I went back to playing fairly as soon as I quit playing that player. Usually if I found a gambler cheating I never played them again. Sometimes on challenge tables and in tournaments it happened.

I can't help myself, I do find it fun and funny to give the cheaters a dose of their own medicine when I am in the mood. Even more likely, I start playing shape where my ass is facing them for many shots and my body blocks their view of those shots. After the shot I will jerk my head around and look at them like checking to see if they saw something wrong. I only do that to cheaters. Since cheaters are the first to suspect others of cheating it drives them crazy!

Hu
Don’t ever stop posting, Hu.....you make me dig deep.

Situational ethics....I don’t think most human beings can avoid them.

I was side betting against a guy once....snooker...he lost the game and paid everybody..
...six or seven of us......then he went to the toilet....came back and paid us again....
...before the next game started...if it was one on one...I would’ve refused the money...
...but I saw the other guys grinning in delight....so I didn’t want to be a knocker...
...I kept the dough.

Few days later, the same guy went broke....$600 at a $100 a game.
So I said “Here’s the deal...I’m going to give you five barrels....if you win your $600 back,
you keep it....anything over $600, we split”...he won $1,100 from there, I got $250 and
my issue back.
He asked me why I gave up that deal....I never did tell him..but I satisfied myself.

Golf and pool were important to me....I wanted to play those games under my own terms.

Don’t get me wrong...I’m no saint....played a lot of poker when I was younger....
...in games where if you got good cards to start, the first thing you did was wonder where
they came from....and I could manipulate the cards pretty good also....
...but I stopped that part of my life....I didn’t like it....still kept playing a bit...
..but only in well run games.


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rotten luck willie - 10-07-2019, 12:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by pt109 View Post
Don’t ever stop posting, Hu.....you make me dig deep.

Situational ethics....I don’t think most human beings can avoid them.

I was side betting against a guy once....snooker...he lost the game and paid everybody..
...six or seven of us......then he went to the toilet....came back and paid us again....
...before the next game started...if it was one on one...I would’ve refused the money...
...but I saw the other guys grinning in delight....so I didn’t want to be a knocker...
...I kept the dough.

Few days later, the same guy went broke....$600 at a $100 a game.
So I said “Here’s the deal...I’m going to give you five barrels....if you win your $600 back,
you keep it....anything over $600, we split”...he won $1,100 from there, I got $250 and
my issue back.
He asked me why I gave up that deal....I never did tell him..but I satisfied myself.

Golf and pool were important to me....I wanted to play those games under my own terms.

Don’t get me wrong...I’m no saint....played a lot of poker when I was younger....
...in games where if you got good cards to start, the first thing you did was wonder where
they came from....and I could manipulate the cards pretty good also....
...but I stopped that part of my life....I didn’t like it....still kept playing a bit...
..but only in well run games.

I enjoyed the movie "Paint Your Wagon". This was maybe my favorite line. Lee Marvin is showing the pilgrim kid around the gambling den and cathouse. He warns the kid not to play poker with Rotten Luck Willie. "Sir I don't gamble."

"Neither does Rotten Luck Willie."

Once I had six or eight gross of playing cards from a give away that never took place. Only two back designs. Then I ran only the second self service gas station within fifty miles or so. If I had three customers in an eight hour shift it was a big day! There were days when I didn't have a single customer. People didn't jump on the self service idea in a big way. I shuffled and practiced with the cards pretty much nonstop most days. Got to where I could do perfect shuffles, feel one card missing, second deal, of course deal off the bottom, never used those skills to take advantage of honest players but I did a few things to card cheaters who thought they were slick.

Hu
  
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10-08-2019, 09:25 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by pt109 View Post
I like these two posts....kinda like how I see it.

I call my own fouls....and I was an action guy...I tend to cue real close to the cue ball...

...if you call the foul on yourself....you stop making them.



One of my best friends....he was a good player....but he didn’t depend on gambling..CPA.

....he said to me once...”It’s okay to cheat a cheater.”.....I disagreed....I told him...

“If you cheat a cheater, then you’re letting a scumbag determine your ethics.”
This exactly.

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10-08-2019, 10:09 AM

Having the intestinal fortitude to call a foul on yourself knowing you've committed a foul, and choosing to remain silent while your opponent is about to blatantly commit a foul... are two oranges of a different tint, in my opinion......


I've said it before, I called a foul on myself at SBE one year where I could have easily gotten away with being silent. Opponent was sitting (and paying attention) to the table but my shot put my back in front of him. I was leaning over into the corner shooting a close rail shot on the 4.
Shot my shot.... got straight on the 5.... thought for a split second and picked up the cueball. I told him "I'm pretty sure I double hit that, I could feel it"

The look of bewilderment was all the gratification I needed.



On the other side of the coin, if my opponent isn't paying attention to his own game, am I morally responsible for making sure he does the right thing? Be it shoot the 8 early, not shoot the consecutive number in 9 ball, or shoot stripes after running a couple solids?? Hell no.
What's next? Do I stop him in the middle of stroking and say "excuse me! I don't think you have that bank shot lined up properly...."
  
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