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A Star Trek type of Utopia! - 10-17-2019, 02:54 AM

I didn't watch all of the Democratic Debates because with debate forum none of the candidates really gets to talk enough about what they are for
in order that people get to know what they are for. So I would watch some on my computer and watch TV too.

One of the conversations I went back in to hear more about was the subject of Universal Income Andrew Yang.

He talked about the idea of Universal Income as being something that were going to have to deal with because of the rise of automation and gave one example.

He talked about a company he knew of that was designing fully automated Trucking and how many jobs would be affected by it and that just being one area of
our lives that jobs would virtually disappear.

Things do change and this is where we are headed. Think of it this way. In my lifetime I've gone from a shack on the side of the hill with no phone lines to sitting on
my couch with a laptop. Things sure have changed a lot in 57yrs.

Capitalism seems to be ready to make some changes too. I'm seeing ads on Facebook about Hemp Plastic, Paper and building blocks. I can't imagine that if we have
an alternative to the pollution that we are adding to the environment that we'll continue doing that. Then those jobs are gone. How many jobs is that?

If filing our taxes were on a 4 x 9 card what would happen to the IRS? How many accountants does that put out of business? Tax Offices across the country?

How many jobs were lost because of Microsoft Office Products? When we started creating spreadsheets and watching every thin dime then our profit margins got tighter
as prices lowered because of other competition and poof jobs were lost.

Things in the world keeps changing and we get more streamlined in ways that eliminate jobs so it becomes a state where you have more people than jobs. Just look at
the trade bills and movement of manufacturing overseas. Sure we can get some jobs back if we create legislation to do it but that might not even be enough to curb the trend.

When there are millions of us without the basic needs to enjoy life like good healthcare and employment what does one do with the people?

Now we start to provide income for them and they become a liability. Do we then start eliminating things from our liability so that they cost us less to upkeep?

Things like bad foods so they don't get atherosclerosis, have heart attacks, develop diabetes from overly sugary foods etc, etc.

If Capitalism works then we have 1% of the country owning most of the wealth and the government being put in a position to take care of all of these people
problems that private industry has no obligation to.

We either change with the times or we become a victim of our own economic system.

So to answer something Sev remarked about in another thread concerning "A Star Trek type of Utopia," I would have to say we're starting to see the beginnings of some major
change and it appears that's the way we are headed.

For years other governments have been ahead of us in this regard. Sure they are not perfect but when you look at the tax implications of living in the United States vs. say Switzerland their
system as expensive as it is starts looking better all the time.

Consider how much you really pay in taxes vs. the amount they pay. They pay around 32 percent to their federal taxes, then they pay local or Canon taxes and they pay Church Tax and depending
on where you live "each Canon is a little different) you land with a final figure usually less than 40%. Compare that to how much you're paying now in all of your combined taxes and take into account
the fact everything a person would get their for what they pay. They get healthcare, childcare, eldercare and other things. If I'm wrong about some of this fine. It bears looking into but the point is the same.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Welcome to the Star Ship Enterprise.

It seems "we are traveling upon the level of time to that undiscovered country from whose borne no traveler returns."

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10-17-2019, 05:41 AM

Yang is the only candidate with an economic background and it shows in the way he has formed his proposed policies. The rest of the democrats don't seem to understand incentive, opportunity cost, tax incidence, etc.

Here is N. Gregory Mankiw's take on Warren's wealth tax vs Yang's VAT and UBI Yang vs. Warren: Who Has the Better Tax Plan?

If Mankiw isn't a familiar name to you, just know that he is one of the most influential living economists (2nd under Krugman, imho) and if you have taken any college level economics course in the last 20 years or so, you almost certainly read a textbook that he authored.
  
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10-17-2019, 06:08 AM

That was a great article. Taxation is something that in this day and time is being used as bribes and gifts and through Wang's proposal taxation does not
hurt the saver which is the best of it. If we had more savers everyone would be more secure. More secure people go into businesses and become self reliant. Taxation
is more of a deterrent to business and tax credit for giving to charity has always seemed like such a waste to me when you could allow the money divvied up to pool
and fund more things for more people.

We probably pay more in the collective taxes here in the US than they do in Switzerland if you count all the taxes Federal, State and local we pay including the gas taxes etc, etc.

I was impressed by Yang. Even if he doesn't get the nomination, he will have sent his message and hopefully eventually it will be heard. Perhaps he ends up on a VP slot which
would be good especially if he wins.

Add the problems that are building with the elimination of jobs by automation to the Social Security funding problems, the healthcare problems and you start to see that kicking the
can down the road can only go on so long before we have a surplus of people without jobs and then having 57% of our budget going to the military seems a bit excessive.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Masayoshi View Post
Yang is the only candidate with an economic background and it shows in the way he has formed his proposed policies. The rest of the democrats don't seem to understand incentive, opportunity cost, tax incidence, etc.

Here is N. Gregory Mankiw's take on Warren's wealth tax vs Yang's VAT and UBI Yang vs. Warren: Who Has the Better Tax Plan?

If Mankiw isn't a familiar name to you, just know that he is one of the most influential living economists (2nd under Krugman, imho) and if you have taken any college level economics course in the last 20 years or so, you almost certainly read a textbook that he authored.


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10-17-2019, 06:24 AM

LMAO. Too funny. So instead of training the future generation in technology or other employment prospects, lets build a giant welfare program. Yeah, that's the ticket. Mindless garbage.

And the left is licking it up. Oh, look, pretty shiny objects (dollar coins) So, he says less jobs, but we are gonna give them $1000 a month. So, in other words, you'll get enough for a car payment and going out to dinner a few times a month. Yeah, that''ll really help pay the mortgage, educations, clothing, taxes, food, etc. LOL

Man, the leftists talk about a free ride, and you don't ask where the clown car is heading (off a cliff) you just jump right in.


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10-17-2019, 07:45 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masayoshi View Post
Yang is the only candidate with an economic background and it shows in the way he has formed his proposed policies. The rest of the democrats don't seem to understand incentive, opportunity cost, tax incidence, etc.

Here is N. Gregory Mankiw's take on Warren's wealth tax vs Yang's VAT and UBI Yang vs. Warren: Who Has the Better Tax Plan?

If Mankiw isn't a familiar name to you, just know that he is one of the most influential living economists (2nd under Krugman, imho) and if you have taken any college level economics course in the last 20 years or so, you almost certainly read a textbook that he authored.
Since Krugman is a 3rd rate hack, I won't bother taking any stock in this other fool you mention, Mankiw.

Nope, sorry, article is written by a fool for fools.


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10-17-2019, 08:24 AM

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Originally Posted by CuesRus1973 View Post
Since Krugman is a 3rd rate hack, I won't bother taking any stock in this other fool you mention, Mankiw.

Nope, sorry, article is written by a fool for fools.
I take it you don't have any formal education in economics if you don't know who Mankiw is. That is no fault of your own of course, but calling a nobel prize winner in economics a third rate hack just makes you look like a fool who is borrowing the opinions of other fools.
  
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10-17-2019, 03:25 PM

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I take it you don't have any formal education in economics if you don't know who Mankiw is. That is no fault of your own of course, but calling a nobel prize winner in economics a third rate hack just makes you look like a fool who is borrowing the opinions of other fools.
A Republican I know told me once. We need another Ronald Reagan. Someone that could tell the Great Unwashed what to do.

Then years later here comes Make America Great Again.

The problem with it is the substance. Elections are being won by small soundbites and not on complete policies that have been thought out well ahead of time.

Education, the media and Science have the become the enemy of the people at least some of the people as is represented here.


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10-17-2019, 03:37 PM

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I take it you don't have any formal education in economics if you don't know who Mankiw is. That is no fault of your own of course, but calling a nobel prize winner in economics a third rate hack just makes you look like a fool who is borrowing the opinions of other fools.
What did Krugman say about what would happen if Trump won?
  
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10-17-2019, 04:04 PM

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What did Krugman say about what would happen if Trump won?
This should be good.


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10-17-2019, 04:35 PM

Wealth redistribution is not going to close the so called wealth inequality gap, which is total bullshit. It is bullshit because for there to be wealth inequality implies there is a level of wealth that is equal to all.

Only when someone gets off their ass, provides something of value that is marketable, makes wise business decisions that that person wealth will increases.

No one else’s wealth should be increased just because someone else’s did.

This is not the American way.

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10-17-2019, 10:48 PM

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What did Krugman say about what would happen if Trump won?
What does it matter?
  
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10-18-2019, 03:40 AM

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Wealth redistribution is not going to close the so called wealth inequality gap, which is total bullshit. It is bullshit because for there to be wealth inequality implies there is a level of wealth that is equal to all.

Only when someone gets off their ass, provides something of value that is marketable, makes wise business decisions that that person wealth will increases.

No one else’s wealth should be increased just because someone else’s did.

This is not the American way.
Yang doesn't actually address wealth inequality like most of the left. His flagship proposal, the UBI, is paid for by a VAT, financial transaction tax, carbon fee, and overlap of existing welfare programs. Making money or holding on to it is not penalized under Yang's policies and he is quite outspoken about how policies like Warren and Bernie's wealth taxes would hurt the country more than help it. Again, read the link I posted earlier before you make up your mind about him.

UBI is simply a measure to alleviate the growing pains as we move from a non-labor based economy.
  
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10-18-2019, 05:26 AM

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I take it you don't have any formal education in economics if you don't know who Mankiw is. That is no fault of your own of course, but calling a nobel prize winner in economics a third rate hack just makes you look like a fool who is borrowing the opinions of other fools.
Nobel Prize winners don't mean sh*t on this forum if they don't say what our boys want to hear!
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10-18-2019, 06:05 AM

Yang proposal is so full of assumptions that it will never work.

And a business will pass on a VAT.

Taxes on top earners.......Why? You work hard, plan right, and you get punished for doing so by being taxed more because of your success.......that is not the American way.

The reason for his proposal is based on automation and the perceived loss of jobs because of it.

I’ve never seen a automated rotorooter come out and clean my sewer pipes or run a electrical circuit.

I want my oil changed......drive right on in......

In other words.......there are jobs.

A unhealthily person will not all of a sudden become healthier with a $1000 a month, nor will they magically take better care of themselves.

My wife has diabetes and breathing issues........things a 1000 bucks a month can’t fix or make her healthier......it would help with the medical cost that went up because of another great plan called Obamacare.

Decrease financial speculation.......right......meaning tax people more that play the stock market.

He states that the VAT will not be passed on to consumers then later states that the price of some goods would go up because of VAT........I don’t trust those that speak with fork tongue.....

Nothing but speculation also in his proposal.

Oh.........where does it state the UBI is tax free? It doesn’t, so you pay taxes on it meaning you don’t see the 1000, only partial, but you do raise the tax income for the government.

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10-18-2019, 07:11 AM

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Education, the media and Science have the become the enemy of the people at least some of the people as is represented here.
LOL!
Thank you. I haven't laughed so hard in quite some time!


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