Natural ability VS. Trained ability

ultimately pain is the only key that unlocks the door.

The one thing no instructor can teach is how to completely, commit to what the student's goal is.....to make it the #1 priority.....to be willing to do anything to achieve the outcome, including sacrifice of mind, body, social experience, and financial gain.

This can not be taught, it must be learned from a source science may never understand....a source that must be experienced, not Intellectualized. Usually this process doesn't come easy, ultimately pain is the only key that unlocks this door.

"No Pain No Gain" is a good "rule of thumb" for reaching the highest levels.

Jaden said:

You can't know who has it and who doesn't without the achievement.

Often times, it is the people who seem to get really good at something really quickly that are said to have the natural talent, but my bet would be that NO ONE is immediately world class and that those who do learn quickly that go on to be world class at any sport immediately had someone who were already accomplished take them under their wing and teach them the right way to do things.

Most world class people at all walks of life had someone who was a world class coach, teaching them from an early age and were reinforced positively throughout their development.

I had a friend who I taught how to play pool. He took it seriously, there was nothing natural about it except his dedication and my knowledge and he was an A player within a year and a half and a short stop within 3 years.

He could have probably gone all the way had there been any reward in it. and he may still.

Prior to meeting me he had only occasionally banged balls with his friends and had never ran more than two balls.

He didn't start taking pool seriously until he was 21 years old.

The only limitations are those we place on ourselves.

Jaden

p.s. I would argue that ALMOST anyone that had the same dedication and access to good instruction could achieve the same level.

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Jaden said:

You can't know who has it and who doesn't without the achievement.

Often times, it is the people who seem to get really good at something really quickly that are said to have the natural talent, but my bet would be that NO ONE is immediately world class and that those who do learn quickly that go on to be world class at any sport immediately had someone who were already accomplished take them under their wing and teach them the right way to do things.

Most world class people at all walks of life had someone who was a world class coach, teaching them from an early age and were reinforced positively throughout their development.

I had a friend who I taught how to play pool. He took it seriously, there was nothing natural about it except his dedication and my knowledge and he was an A player within a year and a half and a short stop within 3 years.

He could have probably gone all the way had there been any reward in it. and he may still.

Prior to meeting me he had only occasionally banged balls with his friends and had never ran more than two balls.

He didn't start taking pool seriously until he was 21 years old.

The only limitations are those we place on ourselves.

Jaden

p.s. I would argue that ALMOST anyone that had the same dedication and access to good instruction could achieve the same level.

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Then there's no way to explain how a 16 year old Chinese kid can win the World 9 Ball Championship...or how a 19 year old Wang Can can obliterate the toughest field in the world in 10 ball in Tunica. Those guys haven't been on the planet long enough to develop the knowledge, experience or hit as many balls as the other top players. All I'm saying is some folks start out much farther along than the rest of us mere mortals. A guy playing 30 years and still being a B player could be because they don't work correctly, or lesser natural ability...on the converse side, a player that's only been playing for 3 years and beating SVB (badly) must have a significant leg up in natural ability. There's no other explanation that works.

Footwork is the first "key" to playing great pool

West Point 1987 said:

Exactly my point. I believe that's why top level pro pool players are also gifted at other sports that require the ability to execute rather complicated complex movements in simple, predictable and repeatable ways and excel at golf, tennis, bowling, etc.

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I agree. Recently I see the difference in players I'm training. Some just have a better knack for learning because they naturally build a bridge from something they accel at to playing pool.

It's easy for me to teach players that already play golf, tennis, or even build houses....there's common denominators in many things at the "deep level" of understanding. At the surface level this is well disguised.

Footwork is the first "key" to playing great pool....if a player doesn't understand the "foundation" (the feet) at a high level it's doubtful they'll progress very far.....this is also true in golf, tennis, martial arts, boxing, soccer, etc.

That's just not true...

West Point 1987 said:

Then there's no way to explain how a 16 year old Chinese kid can win the World 9 Ball Championship...or how a 19 year old Wang Can can obliterate the toughest field in the world in 10 ball in Tunica. Those guys haven't been on the planet long enough to develop the knowledge, experience or hit as many balls as the other top players. All I'm saying is some folks start out much farther along than the rest of us mere mortals. A guy playing 30 years and still being a B player could be because they don't work correctly, or lesser natural ability...on the converse side, a player that's only been playing for 3 years and beating SVB (badly) must have a significant leg up in natural ability. There's no other explanation that works.

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If you think that Tiger woods was natural talent, then you haven't heard his story.

He was taught practically since he could walk and had spent more time on a golf course before 16 than most pros at 25.

You have no idea how many hours Wu spent on a table before he won the world championship. I promise you, it was A LOT!!!!!

If at ten years old he had excellent instruction, by the time he was thirteen with the right dedication, he would've had more than enough time to get the requisite knowledge and skill.

CJ was right, the thing that can't be taught is the heart to maintain the discipline necessary to achieve the level that you want.

Every other aspect of the game could be taught in 6 months.

If I chose to and could devote a lot of my time to teaching a 30 year old, and they truly dedicated themselves ONLY to pool, I could teach them everything they need to know to be world class in 6 months to a year.

It would take them probably a minimum of 3 years of solid dedication to be able to learn how to properly apply that knowledge though.

Also, likek CJ said, you can't teach that kind of dedication and many people over a certain age can't afford to dedicate that much of their time to it.

Also, there is a tendency for people with the knowledge to impart it for free to young kids who show an affinity to the game, but those same kids would likely get no where substantial in the game without that mentoring.

Jaden

Good memory • bad memory

It would pay to have good memory and bad memory if you are of the "trained ability".

Good memory to remember all of the techniques, angles, shots, speed, where to hit the cue ball and bad memory when you don't hit the shot the way you intended.

JoeyA said:

It would pay to have good memory and bad memory if you are of the "trained ability".

Good memory to remember all of the techniques, angles, shots, speed, where to hit the cue ball and bad memory when you don't hit the shot the way you intended.

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So you're saying I shouldn't remember to NOT do that, again?

Best,
Mike

bankshot76 said:

I was just wondering what you all that about training and practicing and how no matter how much someone could practice if they could achieve the ability of someone as naturally gifted like Efren or some of the other greats.

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No (to answer a very old post again). Practice will only get you as far as your innate talent for the game will allow.

Of course it will...

PoolBum said:

No (to answer a very old post again). Practice will only get you as far as your innate talent for the game will allow.

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Of course obtained knowledge and practice will only get you as far as your innate talent for the game; unfortunately, most people just use that as an excuse to not practice and it's a MUCH smaller part than most would like to think.

People look at Wu Chia Ching or Shane Van Boening and think they are just too good. So instead of truly dedicating themselves, (if that's even what they want) they just say oh that's just innate talent.

Sure, eyesight, hand eye, muscle memory, etc... ALL play a part, but the level achievable by the majority is mostly hampered by their knowledge and their dedication.

The amount of difference between the best achievable by most is marginal at best, it is mostly their lack of dedication and some other circumstances that prevents them from getting there.

Jaden

Most people can't afford to play 60+ hours a week, pay or find someone with the requisite knowledge to impart on them, or to traipse across the globe paying thousands of dollars playing in tourneys and matching up.

What I said earlier about knowledgeable people taking young kids who show an affinity under their wing is true and the opposite is also true, some 25 or 30 year old who shows a desire and affinity has to come up with $50-75 an hour to get that kind of instruction.

If I had charged what I should have to my friend Chris, he would've paid me about $30K over the course of me teaching him. Even today I freely give lessons to those who are willing to learn. I actually just taught Rick and one of his young customers something he didn't know while at Big Daddies Billiards.

CJ Wiley said:

I agree. Recently I see the difference in players I'm training. Some just have a better knack for learning because they naturally build a bridge from something they accel at to playing pool.

It's easy for me to teach players that already play golf, tennis, or even build houses....there's common denominators in many things at the "deep level" of understanding. At the surface level this is well disguised.

Footwork is the first "key" to playing great pool....if a player doesn't understand the "foundation" (the feet) at a high level it's doubtful they'll progress very far.....this is also true in golf, tennis, martial arts, boxing, soccer, etc.

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Sorry CJ with all due respect i have to disagree, almost every pro has different foot placement. But if you say for a beginner footwork is critical, and once they develop straight stroke and know what is a straight stroke, then footwork is secondary, i would agree with you.

The difficulty of mastering pool is way underestimated, but purely trained ability for the average brain, unlike God given natural ability such as a good voice, or good genes. To make a shot 10-15 check list items has to be accounted for, the brain can be trained by repetition and knowledge to fetch most of these check list items quickly, but those not very common check list items, tends to be forgotten at times whether young or old, position play is also trained by repetition and thinking. Chinese players seem to remember these check lists better than others IMO.

MasterClass said:

I have seen really crap pool players go train in taiwan and come back becoming pretty decent pool players.

Would you consider Steve Davis as a gifted pool player? From what i read about him from his snooker days till now when i see him play pool. Not flashy but amazingly he could hold his own in the pool world. I think he spent a lot of hard work to develop his gift.

I think things like passion, heart, ball sense, influence and environment plays a part in the natural giftedness which we all have only undeveloped and undiscovered.

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One player who was an incredible clown was RonnieAllen but when you could get him away from the crowd I listened to what he said and carefully.
We were at a ournament in Houston and watching jeremey Jones play He said Jeremy was no natural for the game but had worked very hard to develpe his game and really respected i I was a little surprised by tht remark. From then on I had to think about who I considered natural and it confuses me today.Yet I respected what Ronnie said and thought about the game.
I rqan with Danny Medina for many years. We would get home qand he would not leave home for two or three weeks with no practice at all. Thenhe would show up one day and within about 2 minyres of hitting balls, he was in stroke and firing them in. I always felt he wwasnatural but felt it often worked aginst him. One of the biggest knocks on Danny was that if he could see it, he was going for it and surprised when it did not fall. He would come up short on some crucial things that would have been automatic with some playing time.
ONe time earl said," I like playing Danny, he goes for everything".! It really pissed Danny off and he went on to win their match 11-3.
So, my point? I often have no point,

There's a danger in assuming natural talent.

ironman said:

One player who was an incredible clown was RonnieAllen but when you could get him away from the crowd I listened to what he said and carefully.
We were at a ournament in Houston and watching jeremey Jones play He said Jeremy was no natural for the game but had worked very hard to develpe his game and really respected i I was a little surprised by tht remark. From then on I had to think about who I considered natural and it confuses me today.Yet I respected what Ronnie said and thought about the game.
I rqan with Danny Medina for many years. We would get home qand he would not leave home for two or three weeks with no practice at all. Thenhe would show up one day and within about 2 minyres of hitting balls, he was in stroke and firing them in. I always felt he wwasnatural but felt it often worked aginst him. One of the biggest knocks on Danny was that if he could see it, he was going for it and surprised when it did not fall. He would come up short on some crucial things that would have been automatic with some playing time.
ONe time earl said," I like playing Danny, he goes for everything".! It really pissed Danny off and he went on to win their match 11-3.
So, my point? I often have no point,

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Once someone hits that level where they're THERE so to speak, at or near their plateau, they know what works for them or not.

They have a solid pre shot routine, they have an idea of what they should and shouldn't be thinking about at the table, they have achieved a knowledge of what to do.

Once at that point, you can go a couple of weeks without practicing and then pick up a cue and just play.

There's NO one that just picks up a cue for the first time and knows how to play, say one pocket. It just doesn't happen.

Jaden

Properly aligning themselves to the shot.

naji said:

Sorry CJ with all due respect i have to disagree, almost every pro has different foot placement. But if you say for a beginner footwork is critical, and once they develop straight stroke and know what is a straight stroke, then footwork is secondary, i would agree with you.

The difficulty of mastering pool is way underestimated, but purely trained ability for the average brain, unlike God given natural ability such as a good voice, or good genes. To make a shot 10-15 check list items has to be accounted for, the brain can be trained by repetition and knowledge to fetch most of these check list items quickly, but those not very common check list items, tends to be forgotten at times whether young or old, position play is also trained by repetition and thinking. Chinese players seem to remember these check lists better than others IMO.

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Even if you have an android that stoked perfectly every time they still couldn't make a ball without properly aligning themselves to the shot.

Yes, many athletes in most sports have different footwork (did I say they were the same?)....no two humans are exactly the same because of body types more than anything. Take the serve in tennis for example, it's a classic example.

There are common denominators though, and if you look closely at the Filipino players you'll see what I mean.

Island Drive said:

I think Efren is not a great example for comparison, he seems like a person whos path was chosen for him, much like Einstein or the greats in music. On the other hand, nothing beats hard work, learning, determination, a willingness to never give up, and passion for your chosen field.

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Bill, you are an iteresting study. Would you say you were naturqla or developed?
I remember when we went to Vegas and Reno and you beat so many great palyers and acted like it was juexpected and had high finishes in gothe the MCdermott and Reno but two weeks larter had trouble finding the end rail, lol
Mpy yslomh s djpy sy upi . just an observation.

ironman said:

Bill, you are an iteresting study. Would you say you were naturqla or developed?
I remember when we went to Vegas and Reno and you beat so many great palyers and acted like it was juexpected and had high finishes in gothe the MCdermott and Reno but two weeks larter had trouble finding the end rail, lol
Mpy yslomh s djpy sy upi . just an observation.

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I developed a love hate relationship with pool long ago. I love the game itself, most of the otha' stuff grinds my grits, and I lose interest quickly. Pool does not give one enough reasons to keep at it ''all the time'' which is Wrong.

Not only do great players have natural talent, they have several personality traits too. they have a high self confidence, more desire to dominate with the killer instinct, and they are a more sure of themselves attitude.

Mikjary said:

So you're saying I shouldn't remember to NOT do that, again?

Best,
Mike

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I think what I meant to say was this.

JoeyA

To reach the highest level in any sport, you have to have natural talent and then practice, practice, practice. Sorry, but practice alone won't do it; nor will talent alone.

I think talented people (like most of the players on AZ) don't understand that most people don't have excellent hand-eye coordination. There's a fellow I bowl with who is quite normal in all other aspects -- but it's a roll of the dice every time he rolls the ball down the alley. The ball could go left, or it could go right, or it could go right down the middle. He knows where he wants to roll the ball, but his hands just don't do what his eyes tell him. He's taken instruction. He's practiced 1,000 hours. But in four years in our bowling league his ability has never changed. He simple has NO hand-eye coordination.

Your beliefs play a huge role in both how well you develop talent and the potential you reach.

Here is a good blog that explains the difference between a fixed mindset and a growth mindset
http://michaelgr.com/2007/04/15/fixed-mindset-vs-growth-mindset-which-one-are-you/

There are a lot of people who, when they learn about fixed and growth mindsets, will declare they have a growth mindset. They say "I believe you can work and get better" but when they take a long hard look at what else they say and how they act it becomes clear to them what they really believe.

You can learn more about this in the book "mindset"




Btw- Other beliefs, not covered here, also play a huge role in people who learn things faster (naturals).

West Point 1987 said:

Then there's no way to explain how a 16 year old Chinese kid can win the World 9 Ball Championship...or how a 19 year old Wang Can can obliterate the toughest field in the world in 10 ball in Tunica. Those guys haven't been on the planet long enough to develop the knowledge, experience or hit as many balls as the other top players. All I'm saying is some folks start out much farther along than the rest of us mere mortals. A guy playing 30 years and still being a B player could be because they don't work correctly, or lesser natural ability...on the converse side, a player that's only been playing for 3 years and beating SVB (badly) must have a significant leg up in natural ability. There's no other explanation that works.

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The knowledge and experience required to play world class nine ball obviously can be obtained in the short period of time they have played. (Which might not be that short)

And skills will develop much faster with the absence of self limiting beliefs. I would venture to guess that both had very few self limiting beliefs and if they had a few they were quickly overcome.

(((Satori))) said:

Your beliefs play a huge role in both how well you develop talent and the potential you reach.

Here is a good blog that explains the difference between a fixed mindset and a growth mindset
http://michaelgr.com/2007/04/15/fixed-mindset-vs-growth-mindset-which-one-are-you/

There are a lot of people who, when they learn about fixed and growth mindsets, will declare they have a growth mindset. They say "I believe you can work and get better" but when they take a long hard look at what they say and how they act it becomes clear to them what they really believe.

You can learn more about this in the book "mindset"




Btw- Other beliefs, not covered here, also play a huge role in people who learn things faster (naturals).

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That link was very enjoyable to read. If their research is correct, I am a growth mindset. I know a professional pool player who fits the category described of a Fixed Mindset almost perfectly. (He will always play better than me, no matter what I do.)