Natural ability VS. Trained ability

I have seen really crap pool players go train in taiwan and come back becoming pretty decent pool players.

Would you consider Steve Davis as a gifted pool player? From what i read about him from his snooker days till now when i see him play pool. Not flashy but amazingly he could hold his own in the pool world. I think he spent a lot of hard work to develop his gift.

I think things like passion, heart, ball sense, influence and environment plays a part in the natural giftedness which we all have only undeveloped and undiscovered.

bankshot76 said:

I was just wondering what you all that about training and practicing and how no matter how much someone could practice if they could achieve the ability of someone as naturally gifted like Efren or some of the other greats. I'm sure practice has helped these fantastic players but deep down they are just absolutely gifted with pool playing ability.

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I always enjoy destroying a forum simpleton's overly-idealized fantasies.

Their is know such thing as "Natural Ability" if, bye that, you mean "He can play grate without ever having practiced." Few are lucky enough two have bean born brandishing a queue fresh out of they're mother's womb. Skill is one of the byproducts of practice. (Incidentally, for pool, so is bankruptcy..) What you errantly referred too as "Natural Ability" should, instead, be called "Natural Talent." That being said, aisle pose various questions on you're behalf and then proceed to answer them:

Is it possible to become as good as Eferen (or some of the other greats)?

Yes. That person may even be referred to as "Another one of those greats"

Can he/she surpass someone who has played more?

Yes. This phenomenon is referred to as "Talent" or "The ability to pick things up quickly."

So this differs from "Natural Ability?"

Bingo.

Let me draw a parallel: take <Insert Pro Here> back in time to the first day he played pool. Let him practice for a month. I thawed about it; he gets the 5 and out.

.................

Hello,

I read Joe Tucker had a minimal amount of natural talent and from what I've seen he is an excellent player. I would love to shoot like Joe. What about Ralph Eckertt, National couch and Euro Tour player! I read that his coach spotted him at 18 years old and he couldn't string 3 in any game. I don't believe this whole A players are only born thing. As for Efren and other top world class, well thats another story.

Proper practice and diligence!

Take care,

J.W.

................

Per request from Neil. He wanted me to delete what he wrote. (which IMO was very accurate, LOL) But I will do so out of respect of a very smart and funny poster. There ya go Neil, its deleted.

I am still going to rep you when it will let me.

bankshot76 said:

I was just wondering what you all that about training and practicing and how no matter how much someone could practice if they could achieve the ability of someone as naturally gifted like Efren or some of the other greats. I'm sure practice has helped these fantastic players but deep down they are just absolutely gifted with pool playing ability.

Click to expand...

I think Efren is not a great example for comparison, he seems like a person whos path was chosen for him, much like Einstein or the greats in music. On the other hand, nothing beats hard work, learning, determination, a willingness to never give up, and passion for your chosen field.

Neil said:

Would that be the fantasy where you actually think your posts don't look and read like a drunk thirdgrader wrote them???

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I think he did that to be funny, like in ha ha funny! Don'tja think?

I always thought that being from average to a good player takes hard work.

But becoming a good player to a great play will depend on how much natural you have got.

IMO more than 90% of the very top top players over time were naturals. I really didn't get to see any of the great ones when they were just starting to play, so the only proof I have is what other people that saw them from the start of their playing and what I have read.

Another thing that makes it hard to say how many w/o much natural became great players is the fact that they weren't noticed early on like the 12 year old that's running racks after a few months playing.

I had some natural and a Dad that was a road player before he married. I was a "B" player at 14-15 years old and really never ever got any better because I never pushed myself to get to the next level.Oh sure I had my nights playing like an "A" player but good "C" players can have those flashes too. I got to "B" level w/o having to work at it. I new how to match up early so getting to the next level would not have made me more money.

At that young age I was more into girls, cars, motorcycles, taking bets for the boys, and party, party , party. At 15 years old I was out of the house, had a nice fire engine red ford convert, a big-ass Indian Chief bike, and a apartment on the boardwalk in Long Beach, Long Island, NY with a doorman. So "B" was just fine with me. Johnnyt

MasterClass said:

Would you consider Steve Davis as a gifted pool player? From what i read about him from his snooker days till now when i see him play pool. Not flashy but amazingly he could hold his own in the pool world. I think he spent a lot of hard work to develop his gift.

Click to expand...

Steve Davis is one of the greatest cueists ever. He may have a more deliberate style but he has loads of natural ability. Who else can play 9 ball a handful of times a year and make it to the last 16 in and world championships and always make it through the group stages of the tournament. He plays top flight snooker with very little practice too.

I think a lot of people who have natural ability. It's very few people who put the time into developing their game.

IMO, it's easier & faster to bring out the NATURAL ability using proper training.

Decades ago, there were only a few people who truly knew the "secrets" in pool and, I believe, many of them wouldn't want to share these secrets (hell, who would want to reveal their magic formula to a potential competitor?). It's only recently that we've been unlocking these secrets as we STUDY the techniques of the great players using different media like high speed cams, online discussion forums, etc (I remember Efren learned his magical shots not by watching the "great" players before his time, but by watching these crazy shots done accidentally by amateurs/novices).

I believe those who have Natural ability in pool are those who are very observant, able to understand/dissect the techniques he has seen or accidentally done, and are able to replicate the shot consistently in a very short time. The only problem with relying in Natural Ability is it takes quite a longer time to discover the different techniques as he has to wait for such eureka moments to arise

Of course Trained ability is the shortcut to all the available info which took years of discovery. Just look how strong the Taiwanese team has become in a short time. Sometimes, the problem with a "trained" person is the lack of flexibility or creativity in approaching things in a different perspective (Efren's creative ability makes him standout from the rest).

There was a time that scientists thought that atoms were the smallest particles, but new discoveries led to sub atomic particles; who knows what new discoveries will be made in the future. I guess it's the same with pool, as time progresses, we will be able to discover and/or understand better the once "secrets" in pool and if those with Natural ability get access to such infos, we'll be seeing new bread of tough champions. :wink:

You know, one strong commonality I've found in the dozens of people that have the natural ability factor, the carefree shotmaking, superb hands/eye coordination...well, is that they seem to plateau early. It's almost as if they maintain that speed for an indefinate amount of time. Maybe it's the satisfaction of being the largest fish in the pond, beating up on locals. I dunno, I am not one of those people. I have to fight, fight hard.

But the rare exceptions are those that have that initial ability and a pure love for the game. That seems to transcend many of the fundamentals that a lot of us have to rein in, and what timestamps a champion.

Does that discount the rest of us? Hell no! I can't believe that. I just can't. Having heart and being a seeker of knowledge, IMO, creates a strong mental game and an understanding of patience versus the time to attack.

It's just hard not to envy those that have it, but for me it's something definately worth earning.

edit: grammatical errors...sorry.

Talent, training or practice

bankshot76 said:

I was just wondering what you all that about training and practicing and how no matter how much someone could practice if they could achieve the ability of someone as naturally gifted like Efren or some of the other greats. I'm sure practice has helped these fantastic players but deep down they are just absolutely gifted with pool playing ability.

Click to expand...

Talent for pool, like talent for anything else, is not distributed evenly amongst the population, and all the top players (not just Efren) have been given more than their fair share. However clearly talent is not the whole story.

At some time in their pool playing lives, many forum members will have experienced a permanent step up in performance due to some external factor which could be called 'training'. This could be coaching, picking up stuff from a book or DVD (or this forum :thumbup: ), watching others, or just through experimentation. If training has improved the games of mere mortals, it is reasonable to assume that it has done the same for Gods like Efren even if we were not there to see it happen.

The third element is of course practice: show me someone who does not believe that practice improves your game and I will show you someone who does not know how to practice properly (or someone who is even more lazy than me ) And all the great players practice. If Steve Davis does not practice so much these days, it is only because he has already spent 30+ years putting in the 5 hour days. Age and diminishing returns now take their toll.

So all three - talent, training & practice - are important. And while it can be fun to speculate about which of them is the most important, I don't believe that practically there is any way of really knowing for certain (humans being notoriously bad subjects for scientific observation and experiment).

What is also difficult to really know is which of the top players are the most talented and which have simply trained or practised most effectively. There are certainly styles of play that convey the impression of talent: Players often seem to exude talent who sight the ball quickly, whose pre-shot routine is quick and fluid looking, and who move easily and gracefully between shots. But in reality, these players have just found a technique and rhythm that suits them. Other, equally talented, players may have adopted a style that appears to outsiders more deliberate, in some cases even laborious. But I think that it is a mistake to equate the former with a skill that is 'natural' and the latter with a skill that has been 'manufactured'.

To illustrate this, look at two players who started off in the world of Snooker: Steve Davis (as Cameron has said earlier) has a very deliberate style. Quite different from Tony Drago, who sights and plays very quickly. But IMHO it would be a mistake to deduce from their styles that Drago has the more natural ability. In fact, his technique is probably as much manufactured as Davis's: A pro snooker player told me that when Drago was an amateur, he didn't play anything like as fast. The quick method of play was something that he learned to do when he turned professional (perhaps to cope better with the extra pressures experienced by those who start playing for their living).

Anyhow, I have been rambling a bit. To get back to the original question: With the right training and practice, could you be as good as Efren? No. Sorry.

rep substitute

Impact Blue said:

You know, one strong commonality I've found in the dozens of people that have the natural ability factor, the carefree shotmaking, superb hands/eye coordination...well, is that they seem to plateau early. It's almost as if they maintain that speed for an indefinate amount of time. Maybe it's the satisfaction of being the largest fish in the pond, beating up on locals. I dunno, I am not one of those people. I have to fight, fight hard.

But the rare exceptions are those that have that initial ability and a pure love for the game. That seems to transcend many of the fundamentals that a lot of us have to rein in, and what timestamps a champion.

Does that discount the rest of us? Hell no! I can't believe that. I just can't. Having heart and being a seeker of knowledge, IMO, creates a strong mental game and an understanding patience versus the time to attack.

It's just hard not to envy those that have it, but for me it's something definately worth earning.

Click to expand...

More than worthy of some rep my man, but I am told I have to spread it around!

cplayermagic said:

I always enjoy destroying a forum simpleton's overly-idealized fantasies.

Their is know such thing as "Natural Ability" if, bye that, you mean "He can play grate without ever having practiced." Few are lucky enough two have bean born brandishing a queue fresh out of they're mother's womb. Skill is one of the byproducts of practice. (Incidentally, for pool, so is bankruptcy..) What you errantly referred too as "Natural Ability" should, instead, be called "Natural Talent." That being said, aisle pose various questions on you're behalf and then proceed to answer them:

Is it possible to become as good as Eferen (or some of the other greats)?

Yes. That person may even be referred to as "Another one of those greats"

Can he/she surpass someone who has played more?

Yes. This phenomenon is referred to as "Talent" or "The ability to pick things up quickly."

So this differs from "Natural Ability?"

Bingo.

Let me draw a parallel: take <Insert Pro Here> back in time to the first day he played pool. Let him practice for a month. I thawed about it; he gets the 5 and out.

Click to expand...

wow chico - you got brass calling someone a simpleton with those fancy spelling skills you got there. and i just want to clarify myself on your point, you are saying that if everyone practiced the same amount as the pros do, we could all be pros. is that what you're saying? because that's nonsense. there is such as thing as god given ability. i can play the drums and i never took a lesson in my life. a friend of mine from way back played football at miami and then in the pros. he and i went to the same football camps, played in the same pop warner division he just had more TALENT. i play a good amount of pool and i'm always getting better but i am 37 years old and no matter how many lessons i take with pros, how many hours i shoot drills, there is a level i will not go beyond. that's a fact. if it wasn't a fact eveyone who ever picked up a cue and practiced would be playing the pro's. so i hate to crush another simpletons dream - but you need to practice your spelling and lay off the vodka and xanax before you start to bash another member on the forum for asking a simple question.

I asked this same question to Irving Crane many years ago. His reply was that "although good practice and good instruction can help a player get better over time, there is a natural, inherent, talent that either ya got or you don't".

I've always thought Jeff Carter was a great example of hard work, determination and never gave up. His talent never seemed natural, but his got great results after many years of hard work.

Pool is like school.....There is always someone smarter than you and getting the higher grades no matter how much more you study than them. These students likewise pay their dues. More often than not, they put in more time studying than the average student, although they do indeed learn and absorb things faster which makes it easier and more enjoyable to them. No harm in getting good grades though. Fortunately there's a lot of wealth to spread around to those who are worthy of it.:grin-square: