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ribeye
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06-07-2014, 07:47 AM

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Originally Posted by bamadog View Post
If you had read the book you'd know that his decorations were a sham.
The book (you didn't read) goes over the circumstances involving each one.

Tell me, how did Kerry rotate out of Vietnam after only a few months?

Not to mention his smearing the men who stayed behind to do the fighting while he built a political career on lies he told about them.
I already linked how the book was debunked. By the way, not everything in a book, especially written by extreme partisan ideologues, is factual.


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06-07-2014, 10:19 AM

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Originally Posted by ribeye View Post
I already linked how the book was debunked. By the way, not everything in a book, especially written by extreme partisan ideologues, is factual.
Debunked according to you.

I read it and found the vast majority of it to be well-documented.
No book is 100% accurate.

Kerry is an opportunist medal-hound who built his political career by smearing the guys he left behind.
He ran from the battlefield then threw them under the bus.
  
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06-07-2014, 10:53 AM

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Originally Posted by ribeye View Post
I already linked how the book was debunked. By the way, not everything in a book, especially written by extreme partisan ideologues, is factual.
John Kerry is one of the biggest backstabbing posers in the history of the US. You guys on the left are always looking for a prince and Kerry tried to make himself one. This guy has accomplished nothing as secretary of state: who would even respect him?

He would make a good anchor man. It is sad that he is secretary of state.
  
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06-07-2014, 03:46 PM

Apparently due almost entirely to rabid politicising of this matter, it seems there might have been far too much premature judgement going on, especially as regards labelling Bergdahl a 'collaborator'.

There are so many outrage threads on this matter that it's hard to keep up (and manage to do some work lol). So I don't know if anyone else has already posted this. Here it is anyway for what it's worth.....

http://tbo.com/list/military-news/ma...usion-20140606

Quote:
During his time in Tampa as commander of U.S. Central Command, Marine Gen. James Mattis said he saw no evidence to confirm that Army Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl, released in a prisoner swap last week, collaborated with his captors.

“I have never seen one bit of verified or confirmed evidence of that,” Mattis said in a phone interview with The Tampa Tribune. “Not one bit. You hear things and it was second- and third-hand.”

Other information “specifically discounted” reports that Bergdahl, captured by the Taliban in June 2009 after leaving his outpost in Afghanistan, was working with his captors, he said. Mattis declined to comment on what that information was because it remains classified.


Mattis led the MacDill Air Force Base-headquartered command from August 2010 to March 2013, when he retired after a storied career. Mattis was asked to comment on a report by Fox News that a group run by Duane R. “Dewey” Clarridge, a former senior operations officer for the CIA, provided situation reports to Centcom showing Bergdahl was working with his captors at points during his five years as a prisoner. Clarridge, who gained notoriety in the 1980s after being indicted for lying to Congress about his role in the Iran-Contra scandal, was a civilian contractor at the time.

In the Fox News story, Mattis made similar comments discounting the notion that, according to Fox, “Bergdahl had evolved into an active collaborator with the Haqqani network or the Taliban.”

The Fox News story says information about Bergdahl converting to Islam, fraternizing openly with his captors and declaring himself a “mujahid,” or warrior for Islam, came from a source new to Clarridge’s Eclipse Group “whose trustworthiness had not been fully vetted by the group. However, the report stated, the informant “does have plausible access to the information reported.”

Fox News reported that Clarridge told them Eclipse Group “enjoyed a subcontract through the assistant Secretary of Defense for Special Operations and Low-Intensity Conflict from November 2009 through May 31, 2010, and that after the contract was terminated, he invested some $50,000 of his own money to maintain the elaborate network of informants and handlers that had yielded such detailed accounts of Bergdahl’s status.

“Clarridge further told Fox News that by the end of 2010, he had furnished at least 13 of these detailed Sitreps, or situation reports, that his network generated about Bergdahl to Brig. Gen. Robert P. Ashley Jr., who in April 2010 was named director of intelligence, at the J-2 level, at U.S. Central Command, or Centcom, headquartered at MacDill.”

The Pentagon “is not aware of any contract, subcontract or otherwise” between SOLIC and the Eclipse Group, Cmdr. Amy Derrick-Frost, Defense Department spokeswoman, said late Friday afternoon. Clarridge declined comment. Public affairs staff for Ashley, since promoted to major general and now serving as the commanding general of the U.S. Army Intelligence Center of Excellence & Fort Huachuca, did not respond to a call for comment from the Tribune. Officials from Centcom did not respond to requests for comment and officials from Fox News did not immediately respond to a call and email late Friday afternoon.

Mattis, who took command of Centcom a little more than a year after Bergdahl’s disappearance, told the Tribune that Clarridge’s reports “were simply one bit of information coming in. You do your normal due diligence. We found nothing to support it.”

The circumstances surrounding Bergdahl’s disappearance — some of his fellow soldiers telling media outlets that the young man from Idaho deserted — were being examined during his time as commander, Mattis said. “We looked into all the circumstances surrounding his disappearance,” said Mattis, “There are still questions to be answered. We will leave that in capable hands of the U.S. Army.”

Mattis would not go into details.

“I don’t want to get into specifics,” he said. “It was looked into at the time, but the whole focus initially was to determine how to get him.”

“The partisan bickering” over the circumstances of Bergdahl’s recovery is hard to fathom, said Mattis, one of the Marine Corps’ most beloved generals — widely respected for his vision, courage and telling it like it is.

“I don’t know what to think,” said Mattis. “It is a bit perplexing to me.”

For Mattis, the decision to bring Bergdahl home was simple.

“Bottom line, we don’t leave people behind, that is the beginning and that is the end of what we stand for,” he said. ”We keep faith with the guys who sign on, and that is all there is to it.”


Mike
  
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06-07-2014, 05:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by memikey View Post
Apparently due almost entirely to rabid politicising of this matter, it seems there might have been far too much premature judgement going on, especially as regards labelling Bergdahl a 'collaborator'.

There are so many outrage threads on this matter that it's hard to keep up (and manage to do some work lol). So I don't know if anyone else has already posted this. Here it is anyway for what it's worth.....

http://tbo.com/list/military-news/ma...usion-20140606
The anti-Bergdahl side has the invincible position that any official Pentagon commentary tending to exculpate Bergdahl on any particular charge could be, and therefore (I guess) must be, the result of political pressure on the brass. Or so I've been told in effect.

It is a strong, if incorrect, rhetorical position from which to bat aside any demurrals from their position, based on private, unknowable, secret information that only they can claim to have.

It's the second horn of the dilemma they pose. Only military men have any experience upon which to comment. AND, any military men who disagree with them are lying. Rhetorically unassailable in some respects, but still wrong.
  
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06-07-2014, 05:43 PM

Of course the word of his comrades in arms in the field hold no weight what so ever.

Good thing we are not talking about witnesses to a rape.


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06-08-2014, 07:20 AM

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Originally Posted by ribeye View Post
I watched as a decorated war veteran was shamelessly disparaged by a bunch of yahoo's like yourself (not his own boat-mates, who, with the possible exception of one, fully supported him), more intent of ideology than the truth.

That the Republicans are so adept at character assassination, as perfected by Lee Atwater and Carl Rove, is obviously satisfying in victory. For you, it is all about winning at any cost. It is such an effective tactic, that Democrats and Independents are at such a disadvantage, as they are not as ideologically driven that selling one's sole to the devil is worth it.

But we're not dismayed as long as we have facts, logic and, typically, middle America on our side.
I am speechless...


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06-08-2014, 07:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by memikey View Post
Apparently due almost entirely to rabid politicising of this matter, it seems there might have been far too much premature judgement going on, especially as regards labelling Bergdahl a 'collaborator'.

There are so many outrage threads on this matter that it's hard to keep up (and manage to do some work lol). So I don't know if anyone else has already posted this. Here it is anyway for what it's worth.....

http://tbo.com/list/military-news/ma...usion-20140606
The brass never tells the truth until they retire. Peter Pace commandant of the Marine Corp and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs was cashiered by the Bush administration for saying he did not approve of homosexual behavior. So much for Booooosh being born again. Remember Harvard did not think that war was moral conduct until gays were included. So goes Harvard and so goes the bible thumping Boooosh.

The commander and chief can axe you at any moment and getting to the top ranks is hotly competitive. So in short we will have to rely on his fellow platoon mates and they said unequivocally that he deserted. Collaboration is something in this situation that could be subtle in substance. Now that this is so political we won't get at the truth.
  
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06-08-2014, 09:09 AM

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Originally Posted by OneIron View Post
I am speechless...
I am not, however replying to Ribeye is wasted band width……… Kerry the decorated war hero…… change that to read opportunist, liar, fraud and never a hero……….. more a border line traitor during the Viet Nam era…………...


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06-08-2014, 09:30 AM

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Originally Posted by overlord View Post
The brass never tells the truth until they retire.
The officer in the article retired in 2013.

Quote:
The commander and chief can axe you at any moment and getting to the top ranks is hotly competitive.
I'm not at all sure where you are going with this. It's contradictory. You raise a contention that officers don't tell the truth until they are retired and the thrust of your comments which follow that appear to be that this officer's comments are therefore not reliable. Yet the article clearly explains that he is in fact a retired officer in the first place

I don't know if this particular officer's comments are reliable or not. However any conclusion that the comments of a retired officer are unreliable because officers only tell the truth after they are retired makes little sense.

Quote:
So in short we will have to rely on his fellow platoon mates and they said unequivocally that he deserted. Collaboration is something in this situation that could be subtle in substance. Now that this is so political we won't get at the truth.
'Deserting' and 'collaborating' are two entirely different things. While they obviously have a relevant input to what happened prior to him going walkabout, I'm not sure his platoon mates would necessarily have all that much of value to impart on the latter. The officer made no comments about his "deserting", only comments that "collaborating" was never suggested in any intel that he was privy to.

I'd agree that the whole truth is going to be hard to come by.


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06-11-2014, 12:55 PM

Some interesting, though a bit weird, stuff from Berghdal's journals etc sent to a friend shortly before walking away from his post. He was a strange one.

Also appears he received some kind of psychological rejection by the US Coastguard during his first 4 weeks of basic training with them so he probably needed some kind of a waiver to join the military after that.

Details in here, too long to cut and paste.....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...11f_story.html


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06-11-2014, 02:28 PM

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Originally Posted by avmaster View Post
I am not, however replying to Ribeye is wasted band width……… Kerry the decorated war hero…… change that to read opportunist, liar, fraud and never a hero……….. more a border line traitor during the Viet Nam era…………...

but, he has good hair (coulda been a weatherman)


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06-11-2014, 03:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by memikey View Post
Some interesting, though a bit weird, stuff from Berghdal's journals etc sent to a friend shortly before walking away from his post. He was a strange one.

Also appears he received some kind of psychological rejection by the US Coastguard during his first 4 weeks of basic training with them so he probably needed some kind of a waiver to join the military after that.

Details in here, too long to cut and paste.....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...11f_story.html
interesting article. Ayn Rand the Goddess of the American right made him desert.
  
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06-12-2014, 12:35 AM

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Originally Posted by overlord View Post
interesting article. Ayn Rand the Goddess of the American right made him desert.
If that summarises what you have decided to take out of the large amount of information which the article provides without getting itself embroiled in petty politics, you're clearly not actually interested in trying to find out what kind of cocktail of factors of existing character flaws and mental states might have contributed to why he left his post in the way he did at the time he did.

It makes you appear to be taking the position of "to hell with finding out what might have actually happened and why, the only thing that really matters to me about anything to do with this soldier is how the episode of his capture and release might be able to help me pound out wider right v left arguments on a pool site".

Luckily for the soldier concerned and for others with whom he served, he'll probably get a fair assessment by the military and if considered appropriate will be the subject of a court martial. If that happens it can be confidently expected that the court martial will conducted fairly. If found guilty he'll get whatever sentence is considered appropriate for the circumstances involved.

Anyone who is not interested in objectively following the progress towards that end for any reason other than to selectively mine whatever they think can be used for shallow and petty point scoring games between right v left squabblers is of course perfectly at liberty to behave like that......but don't expect those who are genuinely interested in patiently and objectively following that process to be sucked into those games.


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10-16-2017, 08:29 AM

Plead guilty to desertion. Hang him.
  
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