1-rail / 2-rail kicking systems using midpoint

I aways have used the midpoint between the CB and OB.

jchance said:

Does anyone know whether, when calculating for kicking systems using a midpoint, it should be the midpoint between the CB and the object ball, or the midpoint between the CB and the ghost ball (which obviously can vary according to the contact point we are aiming for on the OB).

I'm talking about systems like the 2-rail system described in this CSI instructional video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfZxKzah1dA&list=PLdCfnbGD70QXr28bs6NnEYglN5Qf-bPzf&index=25

Any advice much appreciated!

Click to expand...

i just watched the beginning of the video
its pretty obvious to me dr Q pointed at the 2 balls not a ghost ball to find the midpoint

jchance said:

Thanks for your replies. I agree in the video Dr Cue uses the midpoint between the CB and OB.

However, when you are trying to hit a precise point on the object ball, either to make the ball or play safe, you won't necessarily be hitting the ball full on. So if I want to hit the left hand side of the OB, my CB will be coming down a different tangent line from if I am trying to hit the right hand side right?

Shouldn't the contact point on the first rail therefore be adapted accordingly?

That seems to make sense in my head but maybe I have misunderstood something.

Click to expand...

It doesn't matter - the system is far from exact no matter which target you use to measure. It's a starting point for estimating the actual shot line.

pj
chgo

jchance said:

Thanks for your replies. I agree in the video Dr Cue uses the midpoint between the CB and OB.

However, when you are trying to hit a precise point on the object ball, either to make the ball or play safe, you won't necessarily be hitting the ball full on. So if I want to hit the left hand side of the OB, my CB will be coming down a different tangent line from if I am trying to hit the right hand side right?

Shouldn't the contact point on the first rail therefore be adapted accordingly?

That seems to make sense in my head but maybe I have misunderstood something.

Click to expand...

If I'm kicking to hit one side or the other on the OB, I use the Ghost Ball as the reference, like you're asking. Dr. Cue is just trying to make the hit. Another system for one rail kicks (to make or hit a CP on the OB), you measure from the contact point straight into the rail, then pull the cue back the same distance along that line, turn and see where the line from the CB connects through the rail...that's your point of contact for hitting the rail. Works really well, you have to practice against OBs that are closer to the rail, then move the OB further out to get the feel. Unlike Dr. Cue, I use center ball, never running English...unless I need it because the line isn't there or is blocked. Center ball works great on one and two rail kicks, and it's always consistent. I don't believe you need running English unless you're kicking three rails, and that's really if you're using the +5 Fuller system or something like that (numbers based diamond systems). So, to answer OP's question, measure the center line between the CB and the ghost ball where you want to contact the OB.

jchance said:

Thanks Patrick, I get what you mean. Are there more precise systems out there that are worth looking into as an alternative? Or is it more a feel thing?

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There are more "granular" systems (with more detailed approximations), but the tradeoff is more calculation to do for each shot - and there will always be an element of "feel" anyway, especially when banking/kicking.

You have to decide on the right balance of system complexity and reliance on feel for your style of play. For instance, I like simple systems (or none) and relying more on my learned ability to estimate. You might rather work a more complex system that gets you a little closer to the actual aim line. No system gets you all the way to the actual aim line without some estimation; any system that could would be too complex and cumbersome to use at the table. And I don't think any of them are dramatically more precise than others (despite some claims) - choosing between them is mostly a matter of preference.

Whatever system (or none) you like, I'd check out Dr. Dave's Banks and Kicks Resource Page and try to learn about the things that make banks/kicks especially feel-dependent (mostly ball/cloth friction effects). I think you'll also find some systems described there.

pj
chgo

jchance said:

Does anyone know whether, when calculating for kicking systems using a midpoint, it should be the midpoint between the CB and the object ball, or the midpoint between the CB and the ghost ball (which obviously can vary according to the contact point we are aiming for on the OB).

I'm talking about systems like the 2-rail system described in this CSI instructional video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfZxKzah1dA&list=PLdCfnbGD70QXr28bs6NnEYglN5Qf-bPzf&index=25

Any advice much appreciated!

Click to expand...

In the video he says to move the cue, and align the CB parallel to the pocket.
I look at 1/2 the distance between both balls and aim that distance off pocket.

.

jchance said:

Does anyone know whether, when calculating for kicking systems using a midpoint, it should be the midpoint between the CB and the object ball, or the midpoint between the CB and the ghost ball (which obviously can vary according to the contact point we are aiming for on the OB).

I'm talking about systems like the 2-rail system described in this CSI instructional video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfZxKzah1dA&list=PLdCfnbGD70QXr28bs6NnEYglN5Qf-bPzf&index=25

Any advice much appreciated!

Click to expand...

You would certainly want the cue ball to arrive at the position of the ghost ball. But it is important to remember all the other factors that must be considered. Angle in = angle out is often not an accurate indicator of where the cue ball is going. Speed of the shot, any spin (not just side spin) on the cue ball, humidity, condition of the cushions, etc, all have an impact on the rebound angle. So the precise mid point, may not necessarily be the best place to target. It's more involved than just geometry.
Steve

Kicking systems

jchance said:

Are there more precise systems out there that are worth looking into as an alternative?

Click to expand...

I really like Tor Lowry's kicking cd. He discusses his system for one two and 3 rails and explains well a lot of the variables and how to adjust for them. His system is like some others except he uses whole numbers like 10, 15, 20 to number the diamonds and so forth instead of 1, 1.5,2, to make the math understanding a little easier. 25 and a half is a little easier to visualize than 2.55 and so forth. He also has a bonus kicking cd with some down and dirty quick methods for certain shots.

Dr. Dave covers kicking pretty well and not that different accept for the numbering and less explanation of the variables and how to compensate. I am sure there are others as well.

pooltchr said:

You would certainly want the cue ball to arrive at the position of the ghost ball. But it is important to remember all the other factors that must be considered. Angle in = angle out is often not an accurate indicator of where the cue ball is going. Speed of the shot, any spin (not just side spin) on the cue ball, humidity, condition of the cushions, etc, all have an impact on the rebound angle. So the precise mid point, may not necessarily be the best place to target. It's more involved than just geometry.
Steve

Click to expand...

just nailed it- as usual

hope you re doing greart Steve

Some already gave good response on this topic. If it s about banks and kicking it s always very much about expirience-- when people talk here about "feel" they often mean "using their knowledge from expirience"- how to compare the reference points they have with the existing circumstances like using necessary speed (the harder you shot, the cueball will come out shorter than the "equal" estimated angle on paper, the humidty also would shout out for correcting your hitpoint on a bank or kickshot- because CB again would come out shorter etc etc.

Anyway Steve has shown up some important points-- as usual well explained

My personal opinion was always to know 2-3 systems for sure- or having several reference points. Then you re able to adjust to the circumstances much easier and faster.

have a smooth stroke,

best from overseas,

Ingo

Every system is just for estimating shot line. Because shot line will vary depending how the speed and spin of your shot and will vary from barbox vs diamond table!

so you have to develop a feel (speed/spin) that you feel is close to your system's estimation and adjust from there. If you know you need to hit harder for position play, you need to know what's going to happen on a harder shot and adjust your aim.

Midpoint between cb and target spot on ob, then parallel shift. For one-rail kicks and banks you know have a triangle by extending both lines (in and out of the cushion) to the rail. Send the kicked cue ball (or the banked ob) to the apex of the triangle for the kick (or bank).

This system is good for a smoothly stroked, rolling ball.