14.1 Break Ball Help

crazysnake

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Capelles Break shot patterns, and Ray Martins Critical shots. Watch Mika, Hohmann and Feijen on you tube.

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sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Can anyone here recommend any books or videos that go in depth about different break ball positions and how to execute them?

I’m pretty clueless about what areas are good for break balls around the stack. I have a decent feel for the standard side of the stack break shot, but that’s the only one I really know and I feel like I must be overlooking a lot of good break balls.

Even the side of the rack break shot...I feel like I don’t know what spin to use sometimes. I just whack at it and hope for the best. Sometimes the CB squats above the rack area and it’s perfect, sometimes I follow off the stack into the corner I shot the break ball into, sometimes the CB pops back and follows across table into the side pocket, etc. :shrug:

Anyway, any help would be greatly appreciated!

If you'd care to search my back posts I have a ton of 14.1 info there. Some pertains to breakshots. There's a lot on shot selection which IMO is your weakest area.
 

Seth C.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member

With no disrespect intended for the OP, Mr. Fleming, or anyone else, I'd have some difficulty suggesting the Fleming tape on break shots as a first resource. I never understood how he could recommend a high or low hit on the CB without consideration/discussion of whether the CB was itself high or low relative to the stack, or where the CB is expected to contact an OB (or OBs) in the stack. Same for his recommendation of right English: he makes it without consideration of these same points. Interestingly, I guess I'd put it, he doesn't even explain why right English. Certainly there are plenty of players who effectively use high left (when CB is on left side of table) when the CB is located low relative to the stack, in order to bring the CB back to the middle of the table. But there are also plenty of fine player-instructors who would say to not use English on a break shot unless, given all the variables, it would offer a notable advantage over a center CB hit, and unless you are very confident and proficient when applying English.

I know he talks about his recommendations as being rules of thumb, not absolutes, but I don't understand how using right English should be a rule of thumb whenever the CB is equidistant with the OB from the side rail, or whenever the CB is located further from the side rail than is the CB. He also doesn't discuss the importance, when the OB is far enough away from the stack to be able to influence the point of contact with the stack by applying high or low on the CB, of contacting the stack other than in its middle. That would be a good rule of thumb.

Finally, I know it's a quibble, and maybe I'm in the minority, but the reference to putting center high or low on the CB as applying "English" struck me as a misapplication of the term.

Having said all of the above, I will be the first to admit that I'm not very good at this tough game and basically feel that I have way, way more to figure out - including about break shots - than I currently know.
 

crazysnake

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
With no disrespect intended for the OP, Mr. Fleming, or anyone else, I'd have some difficulty suggesting the Fleming tape on break shots as a first resource. I never understood how he could recommend a high or low hit on the CB without consideration/discussion of whether the CB was itself high or low relative to the stack, or where the CB is expected to contact an OB (or OBs) in the stack. Same for his recommendation of right English: he makes it without consideration of these same points. Interestingly, I guess I'd put it, he doesn't even explain why right English. Certainly there are plenty of players who effectively use high left (when CB is on left side of table) when the CB is located low relative to the stack, in order to bring the CB back to the middle of the table. But there are also plenty of fine player-instructors who would say to not use English on a break shot unless, given all the variables, it would offer a notable advantage over a center CB hit, and unless you are very confident and proficient when applying English.

I know he talks about his recommendations as being rules of thumb, not absolutes, but I don't understand how using right English should be a rule of thumb whenever the CB is equidistant with the OB from the side rail, or whenever the CB is located further from the side rail than is the CB. He also doesn't discuss the importance, when the OB is far enough away from the stack to be able to influence the point of contact with the stack by applying high or low on the CB, of contacting the stack other than in its middle. That would be a good rule of thumb.

Finally, I know it's a quibble, and maybe I'm in the minority, but the reference to putting center high or low on the CB as applying "English" struck me as a misapplication of the term.

Having said all of the above, I will be the first to admit that I'm not very good at this tough game and basically feel that I have way, way more to figure out - including about break shots - than I currently know.
I agree. However, Pat's video is a good starting point, especially showing the larger break area. Nevertheless, it's more productive to focus on end game pattern play, those last 6-5 balls. Blackjack has a couple of end pattern drills that are helpful.

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DynoDan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I know Ralph Greenleaf used to favor sidepocket breaks (10’ table), but those often leave me stuck to pack.
 

DynoDan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I know Ralph Greenleaf used to favor sidepocket breaks (10’ table), but those often leave me stuck to pack.
 

stevekur1

The "COMMISH"
Silver Member
Can anyone here recommend any books or videos that go in depth about different break ball positions and how to execute them?

I’m pretty clueless about what areas are good for break balls around the stack. I have a decent feel for the standard side of the stack break shot, but that’s the only one I really know and I feel like I must be overlooking a lot of good break balls.

Even the side of the rack break shot...I feel like I don’t know what spin to use sometimes. I just whack at it and hope for the best. Sometimes the CB squats above the rack area and it’s perfect, sometimes I follow off the stack into the corner I shot the break ball into, sometimes the CB pops back and follows across table into the side pocket, etc. :shrug:

Anyway, any help would be greatly appreciated!

Jim Rempe made an instructional tape for Accu-Stats called "How To Run A Rack in Straight Pool" and "How to Run 100 Balls" they are both amazing. i do believe they are still available at www.accu-stats.com they cover just about everything in 14.1 and the information that Jim gives you cannot put a pricetag on. It's definitly worth checking out !!

-Steve
 

John Biddle

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
@SethC: Re the Pat Fleming video/advice. I don't believe the right or left english is intended to affect the cueball path to the rack, but how it will come off the 1st rail.
 

Seth C.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
@SethC: Re the Pat Fleming video/advice. I don't believe the right or left english is intended to affect the cueball path to the rack, but how it will come off the 1st rail.

John -- Thanks for your reply. Yes, I knew that. My points were twofold. First, he didn't explain that to the viewer (making the information less helpful and possibly confusing to newer players). Second, why recommend right English (assuming any English is called for) irrespective of (a) whether the CB is expected (based on where you anticipate the CB to contact a ball (or balls) in the stack, and speed) to go to the side rail or the end rail, (b) where on the rail in question the CB is expected to land, and (c) the speed of the CB (at higher speed the CB might break up or come off the remainder of the stack on second impact, whereas at lower speed it might get stuck)? If, for example, right English would be expected to cause the CB come off the end rail and spin back into the bottom of the stack (possibly leaving no shot), but no English (best whenever possible) or left English would cause the CB to angle or spin away from the stack after contacting the end rail and work its way back to center table, why use right English? Maybe you or someone will educate me and I'll learn something new! Regards.
 

sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If, for example, right English would be expected to cause the CB come off the end rail and spin back into the bottom of the stack (possibly leaving no shot), but no English (best whenever possible) or left English would cause the CB to angle or spin away from the stack after contacting the end rail and work its way back to center table, why use right English? Maybe you or someone will educate me and I'll learn something new! Regards.


In most cases, the CB, in the examples he gave, will not come off the end rail and back into the rack. That's not the purpose for applying right. It's most usual purpose would be to slow the CB down after coming off the rail. If the same shot is hit with the same speed but no english or left is used there's a good chance it will end up way uptable or even in a pocket. A couple of the main goals when shooting breakshots is to avoid scratching and to stay downtable. The technique he advocates is helpful in accomplishing those 2 things.
He doesn't give reasons for what he says to do but it's only about 5 min. of video.
To explain all the nuances could take more like 5 hrs. He does say that every situation is different and other scenarios may call for doing something differently.
Aspiring 14.1 players may want to take note about something. If you take a look at the table layouts in the 3 times he does the side of rack breakshots you'll see that the 1st 2 table layouts after the break are superior than the 3rd one. That should indicate to you that, with breaksots in general, more angle is better.
 

DynoDan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I can see how english is important when breaking from behind the rack (you can’t get uptable without it), but it can certainly complicate shotmaking. It’s bad enough that you must take into consideration the condition of the balls & speed of hit (loft/throw) when making any cut shot, but when you add english to the mix (squirt deflection & spin throw), pocketing the break shot in a pressure situation can often get dicey. After all, if you miss and your opponent is any good, you are usually SOL!
 

Seth C.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I can see how english is important when breaking from behind the rack (you can’t get uptable without it), but it can certainly complicate shotmaking. It’s bad enough that you must take into consideration the condition of the balls & speed of hit (loft/throw) when making any cut shot, but when you add english to the mix (squirt deflection & spin throw), pocketing the break shot in a pressure situation can often get dicey. After all, if you miss and your opponent is any good, you are usually SOL!

Completely agree.
 

Seth C.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In most cases, the CB, in the examples he gave, will not come off the end rail and back into the rack. That's not the purpose for applying right. It's most usual purpose would be to slow the CB down after coming off the rail. If the same shot is hit with the same speed but no english or left is used there's a good chance it will end up way uptable or even in a pocket. A couple of the main goals when shooting breakshots is to avoid scratching and to stay downtable. The technique he advocates is helpful in accomplishing those 2 things.
He doesn't give reasons for what he says to do but it's only about 5 min. of video.
To explain all the nuances could take more like 5 hrs. He does say that every situation is different and other scenarios may call for doing something differently.
Aspiring 14.1 players may want to take note about something. If you take a look at the table layouts in the 3 times he does the side of rack breakshots you'll see that the 1st 2 table layouts after the break are superior than the 3rd one. That should indicate to you that, with breaksots in general, more angle is better.

It's the one size fits all aspect of the advice that I question. Whether the CB is going to contact the top, middle or bottom of an object ball, and whether the object ball is near/at the corner of the stack or in the middle of the stack, all must be considered in deciding whether to apply English and what kind to apply. Maybe I'm in a minority, but I think trying to get the CB to the middle of the table, rather than down amongst the stack balls and clusters (where no shot might be available) seems like a good goal.
 

sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's the one size fits all aspect of the advice that I question. Whether the CB is going to contact the top, middle or bottom of an object ball, and whether the object ball is near/at the corner of the stack or in the middle of the stack, all must be considered in deciding whether to apply English and what kind to apply. Maybe I'm in a minority, but I think trying to get the CB to the middle of the table, rather than down amongst the stack balls and clusters (where no shot might be available) seems like a good goal.

You'll note that in the part of your post (#12) that I quoted, you questioned "why right english". I explained why right english is applicable in this situation (keep the CB downtable and avoid scratching). It will very seldom result in the CB getting caught up in back of or stuck in the rack.
I understand much of your problem is his lack of attention to detail but as I said it's only 5 min. long.
You're not in a minority when you say getting the CB to center table is a good thing. Many advocate that.
I myself, in most cases, don't really pay much attention to that. My main concerns center on opening the balls effectively, not being uptable and staying out of a pocket. The CB around center table (while nice) is secondary to those goals.
Pats video, while admittedly lacking detail, can definitely be helpful to someone in Peppersauces stage of developement.
More attention to detail can always come later.
That's coming from someone whose past posts in this forum have stated that while rules of thumb (in 14.1) are helpful, each breakshot should be evaluated individually.
As far as the BS in his video (CB and OB equidistant) is concerned, I'll offer a further explanation.
There are certain breakshots, that which ball in the rack is struck and/or where it is struck is somewhat irrelevant. This happens to be one of them, providing its contact is somewhere between the bottom of the top ball and the bottom of the 3rd ball down. Excellent results will occur almost always.
Outside those parameters may call for something different.
Something else that was in one of your posts should also be mentioned in relation to this. " He also doesn't discuss the importance, when the OB is far enough away from the stack to be able to influence the point of contact with the stack by applying high or low on the CB, of contacting the stack other than in its middle. That would be a good rule of thumb."
If you are going to use follow on a breakshot, it's usually a good idea to adjust your speed so as to make sure the CB strikes the rack before the follow takes effect and curves the CB's path. The further away the harder you need to hit it.
Why is this important? Because once the CB curves and then hits something it comes off what it hits (in this case a ball) and travels along the tangent line, which might lead into the corner pocket.
To avoid this, if hit hard enough, the curve occurs after contact with the rack and though it may be headed towards the pocket it will curve to the right and go into the bottom rail. At this point, the CB is most likely heading into the rail at a right to left angle and in that case the right english comes into play and helps slow the CB down so it doesn't end up near the top rail.
I type slower than everyone on earth so I'm done. As previously mentioned, I have a lot of 14.1 info in back posts (going into a lot of detail) which the OP and others might find helpful.
**Peppersauce.... You're asking for info on breakshots. It's something you need to know but a bigger issue is shot selection. If you improve in that area you're much more likely to get on more, better breakshots. I'd almost guarantee that during your practice sessions you run the rack but fail to get on a BS where you can effectively open the next rack and continue. Or run 11,12, or 13 balls and then have to try something crazy in order to ensure a BS and miss. This is very common and is pretty much due to poor shot selection. You have the shotmaking and position skills for running 40-70 balls consistently but your shot selection and decision making are prohibiting that.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Why is this important? Because once the CB curves and then hits something it comes off what it hits (in this case a ball) and travels along the tangent line, which might lead into the corner pocket.
To avoid this, if hit hard enough, the curve occurs after contact with the rack and though it may be headed towards the pocket it will curve to the right and go into the bottom rail.

Interesting point. The curve after contact with the rail keeps the cb from scratching. I hadn't considered the consequences if that forward curve happens BEFORE contact with the pack. Thanks!

@ Seth: I was annoyed at the constant advice everybody always gave to put a little right english on the cue ball for a right hander's break shot. I looked and looked for the reason and I concluded that it was just what people say for a left cut. Many people put a little english on every cut shot, so I thought maybe that was the reason. In essence, no reason.

But I noticed myself that many shots without english leave the cue ball hitting the foot rail and then rolling all the way to the head rail, or a scratch. It seemed to me that the english would put the breaks on the cb and prevent that. Lo and behold I caught a quick mention of that in Mosconi's video, link below. First he only says that the high right causes the cb to drive through the pack. Of course that's the "high" part and not the "right" part. But on the video he then says almost as an afterthought, "you see it also kept my cue ball down in this position so I have another shot." As an aside, you'll note that Mosconi said, "That's better." Why would he say that? If you look carefully you'll see that the ball spread is different in the overhead view. He didn't like something after the break shot so he shot it over again! lol.

https://youtu.be/Yym21l9_Z3U?t=26m7s

Anyway, Willie and sparkle say the right english is to keep the cue ball down in the bottom area of the rack. Good enough for me!

Edit: I haven't watched this video in a long time. After he runs the first rack he says that he has to hit the next shot harder because of the angle and therefore will need to put more english on the ball to keep it at the foot of the table, "to hold the ball down here" as he puts it.

https://youtu.be/Yym21l9_Z3U?t=29m21s
 
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Seth C.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Interesting point. The curve after contact with the rail keeps the cb from scratching. I hadn't considered the consequences if that forward curve happens BEFORE contact with the pack. Thanks!

@ Seth: I was annoyed at the constant advice everybody always gave to put a little right english on the cue ball for a right hander's break shot. I looked and looked for the reason and I concluded that it was just what people say for a left cut. Many people put a little english on every cut shot, so I thought maybe that was the reason. In essence, no reason.

But I noticed myself that many shots without english leave the cue ball hitting the foot rail and then rolling all the way to the head rail, or a scratch. It seemed to me that the english would put the breaks on the cb and prevent that. Lo and behold I caught a quick mention of that in Mosconi's video, link below. First he only says that the high right causes the cb to drive through the pack. Of course that's the "high" part and not the "right" part. But on the video he then says almost as an afterthought, "you see it also kept my cue ball down in this position so I have another shot." As an aside, you'll note that Mosconi said, "That's better." Why would he say that? If you look carefully you'll see that the ball spread is different in the overhead view. He didn't like something after the break shot so he shot it over again! lol.

https://youtu.be/Yym21l9_Z3U?t=26m7s

Anyway, Willie and sparkle say the right english is to keep the cue ball down in the bottom area of the rack. Good enough for me!

Edit: I haven't watched this video in a long time. After he runs the first rack he says that he has to hit the next shot harder because of the angle and therefore will need to put more english on the ball to keep it at the foot of the table, "to hold the ball down here" as he puts it.

https://youtu.be/Yym21l9_Z3U?t=29m21s

I appreciate the posts from you guys, especially given the hassle of typing.

You are giving me things to think about and helping me learn, so thanks. I'm going to use right with some regularity and see what happens.
 

Seth C.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I can see how english is important when breaking from behind the rack (you can’t get uptable without it), but it can certainly complicate shotmaking. It’s bad enough that you must take into consideration the condition of the balls & speed of hit (loft/throw) when making any cut shot, but when you add english to the mix (squirt deflection & spin throw), pocketing the break shot in a pressure situation can often get dicey. After all, if you miss and your opponent is any good, you are usually SOL!

So, I was watching the video of a straight pool seminar that Ray Martin gave many years ago (https://youtu.be/apf-EZf2LGI). At one point (1:03:40) he is asked about whether to use English on a standard break shot. His answer was:

"You don't need any. English doesn't do a damn thing to the rack. Zero. You can use English, if it helps you make the shot -- if it helps you in your mind. Nothing wrong with that. The important thing here is to pocket the ball."

On a related note, during the same discussion, he talked about speed of the break shot as it relates to resultant CB position, rather than as it relates to dispersion of the balls (which is what most people talk about).
 
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