what could be the cause

deanoc said:

josey made me a sneaky pete several years ago with a ferrule made from a cue ball

this cue applied an unbelievable amount of draw engish

so much that jerry franklin grabbed it to see what was happening
he was amazed as was jack potter of libra cues

nobody could explain it,you could hit draw that came back so fast it appeared to be curving at modest speeds

dennis glennis keeping the cue for his museum

it also was easy to hit inside english that went straight and then 3 rails to the other end

it sounds impossible ,but this is true
can anyone guess why

it made me feel like mike masse

It looked and felt like a nice sneaky pete
no funny taper
through no intention by josey

just a freak of nature

i would love to duplicate it

Click to expand...

Hard for us to know if it was an Ivory ball or a Phenolic ball?

My favorite hard tip is from Black Phenolic rod that I make ferrules and tips with.

I once got a full table draw with an unchalked broom handle.............. the next day I got my period............... I don't know why...................

deanoc said:

josey made me a sneaky pete several years ago with a ferrule made from a cue ball

this cue applied an unbelievable amount of draw engish

so much that jerry franklin grabbed it to see what was happening
he was amazed as was jack potter of libra cues

nobody could explain it,you could hit draw that came back so fast it appeared to be curving at modest speeds

dennis glennis keeping the cue for his museum

it also was easy to hit inside english that went straight and then 3 rails to the other end

it sounds impossible ,but this is true
can anyone guess why

it made me feel like mike masse

It looked and felt like a nice sneaky pete
no funny taper
through no intention by josey

just a freak of nature

i would love to duplicate it

Click to expand...

What kind of tip was it? Just thinking about the physics... You have static friction and kinetic friction. What happens in a draw shot is that the cue ball is sliding along the cloth (kinetic friction) and spinning backwards at the same time. When it makes contact with the object ball, that change in momentum allows the static friction to take over and thus have the ball roll. Since the ball is spinning backwards it will roll backwards. Side spin doesn't usually change things much until it hits a rail because the cue ball spinning along that axis is parallel to the cloth.

So I think a cue allowing easy draw could be a couple things. The first is the amount of backspin it can impart on the cue. My imagination is this depends a lot on the tip. My guess is that a tip that has a lot of friction will stay in contact with the cue longer before it's kinetic movement will take it toward the OB, allowing more of the cue energy to be imparted on the spin. What affect would the ferrule have? I'm not sure. Perhaps some amount of compression of the end-mass of the shaft will work against imparting spin, so a less compressible ferrule (not necessarily heavier) will work better. Or perhaps it has something to do with the feedback the cue provides to you, causing you to slow the stroke and kill the draw on traditional cues.

Maybe it's not as simple as maximizing one thing and minimizing another. Perhaps the ratio of these effects matters most.

Who knows? I'm spitballing it. But a few ideas might lead to experimentation to find a consistent answer.

The cue ball was a waxed red circle.

Good stroke, light cueball, good table cloth.

deanoc said:

it was a common tip
and worked on every table i tried it

just a normal cue ball

i doubt that anyone knows why
i was just hoping

but if anyone wants to build a cue to out draw it

i am willing to bet on this one

Click to expand...

I thought you already quit pool?

The opposite of that shaft is argued by a lot of people to be a great drawing shaft too. Meucci shaft with shippy taper and long soft plastic ferrule.
And that expensive black shaft going around now.

deanoc said:

it was a common tip
and worked on every table i tried it

just a normal cue ball

i doubt that anyone knows why
i was just hoping

but if anyone wants to build a cue to out draw it

i am willing to bet on this one

Click to expand...

Talk to Dr. Dave and take your dementia medicine. Lol.

The cue Dean speaks of is known as "the draw cue" which now resides in Denny Glenn's collection. Denny had to have it after seeing what could be done with it... Even Keith doesn't exactly know why it performed this way but it's a unicorn of sorts that amazed many great players and makers....

Doesn't Josey know what Josey did?

Can't Josey make another?

skins said:

The cue Dean speaks of is known as "the draw cue" which now resides in Denny Glenn's collection. Denny had to have it after seeing what could be done with it... Even Keith doesn't exactly know why it performed this way but it's a unicorn of sorts that amazed many great players and makers....

Click to expand...

If it doesn't have anything out of the ordinary done to it then it should be something along the lines of the perfect balance point + the perfect shaft taper + the perfect shaft density + + + + right?

How does the cue handle touch shots? Or is it like my golf game, where I hit everything like I am teeing off.

If it is in some massive cue collection does that mean it will not see the light of day again? Seems like if there really is something amazing about this cue it should be studied until it is figured out. It isn't magic, it's physics so it should be something that can be understood.

Dan White said:

If it is in some massive cue collection does that mean it will not see the light of day again? Seems like if there really is something amazing about this cue it should be studied until it is figured out. It isn't magic, it's physics so it should be something that can be understood.

Click to expand...

It could be studied but that would have to include direct examination by Keith, again, as well as xrays, measurements, and every other material type tests that are available, maybe even disassembly and a possible never ending rebuild strategy that would take tons of time and meterials which he and most any knowledgeable maker is not willing or would even be allowed to do. I mean figuring it out may be as easy as eliminating world hunger (just get food to all people). Easy to know what to do but no one is willing to put out the time and effort to get it done... So for now and maybe forever it stays "magic" ... Plus theres the collecting side. If I were Denny I'd keep that cue close to my chest too. If everyone knew how to breed unicorns everyone would have one..:grinning-moose:

HawaiianEye said:

Doesn't Josey know what Josey did?

Can't Josey make another?

Click to expand...

Of course he knows what he "did" but the cue was made a long time ago and he doesnt have some of the exact materials plus that doesn't mean that something wasn't unique about some of the materials thats non repeatable.

skins said:

It could be studied but that would have to include direct examination by Keith, again, as well as xrays, measurements, and every other material type tests that are available, maybe even disassembly and a possible never ending rebuild strategy that would take tons of time and meterials which he and most any knowledgeable maker is not willing or would even be allowed to do. I mean figuring it out may be as easy as eliminating world hunger (just get food to all people). Easy to know what to do but no one is willing to put out the time and effort to get it done... So for now and maybe forever it stays "magic" ... Plus theres the collecting side.

Click to expand...

Or, it could also be something pretty simple that was overlooked. I'm assuming for the moment that whatever characteristics this cue (shaft?) has it is something desirable. Plus, if this cue really is that remarkable in the age of Revo and all kinds of cue experimentation, learning what makes this cue tick could advance cue technology tremendously, no?

If I were Denny I'd keep that cue close to my chest too. If everyone knew how to breed unicorns everyone would have one..:grinning-moose:

Click to expand...

I'm kind of thinking of it from the view point that I could be in the business of selling unicorns once I know how to breed them. :thumbup:

Dan White said:

Or, it could also be something pretty simple that was overlooked. I'm assuming for the moment that whatever characteristics this cue (shaft?) has it is something desirable. Plus, if this cue really is that remarkable in the age of Revo and all kinds of cue experimentation, learning what makes this cue tick could advance cue technology tremendously, no?



I'm kind of thinking of it from the view point that I could be in the business of selling unicorns once I know how to breed them. :thumbup:

Click to expand...

Yeah I get ya...Keith has already looked over the cue and knows everything that was done at the time of the build which was his standard procedures at the time that cue was made. He doesn't use that type of ferrule material anymore but as he has said he doesnt think that alone could not have made such a big difference.

I think it's just an coincidence between those exact specific materials used in that build alone that caused this anomaly..

Or maybe Keith really does have the answer. :thumbup:

skins said:

Yeah I get ya...Keith has already looked over the cue and knows everything that was done at the time of the build which was his standard procedures at the time that cue was made. He doesn't use that type of ferrule material anymore but as he has said he doesnt think that alone could not have made such a big difference.

I think it's just an coincidence between those exact specific materials used in that build alone that caused this anomaly..

Or maybe Keith really does have the answer. :thumbup:

Click to expand...

My ferrule is made with cue ball phenolic as well so I know that's not the answer.

Oh well, life is but a mystery.

Well I think step number one is to conclusively prove it does in fact draw the ball like Mike Massey.

The first step in doing that is to use a Rempe ball and see where the chalk mark ended up with both this “Draw Shaft” and a non-unicorn shaft. If the marks line up with both cues, but the draw result is drastically different, then there might be something there. I’m betting the chalk marks won’t line up...

Without doing this test, I don’t care if Mosconi comes back from the grave and claims the cue draws like a unicorn, I’m not buying it