The Hal Houle Post

Dan White said:

I asked Lou to publish his book already (the one he might or might not have been writing) because saying something vague in 2 or 3 lines isn't much to go on, not that he was trying to lay out all the particulars.

Since you mocked my post I would have thought you had your own thoughts on the matter but maybe that is asking too much.

Click to expand...

I wasn't mocking your post. What I have to say about it is pretty much what Lou said but I now know hitting you square between the eyes with it, which I kinda did would be better off coming from him than me.

What you're focusing on seems like the right thing in your mind, but it AIN'T. It's all about the other parts and areas if done correctly first taking care of the stroke. Not hyper focusing on the elbow or shoulder.

Neither he or I are going to influence what you seem so focused on as the key.

Dan White said:

Give me something a little more concrete to go on.

Click to expand...

I can't go any further than this. It's the exact opposite of what you focus on and try to do. What YOU posted: "For instance, I have found that keeping the elbow as still as possible is very important for me and produces good results every time I stick to it.

shoulder turn, elbow, fingers, etc. that when done together give me really good results. If I don't play for a week I may find that I'm not following that procedure 100%. When I get the elbow working as I think it should I do not think about "not moving it" on each shot. Instead, the stroke motion with the fixed elbow has a certain feel to it and that is what I try to make my natural, normal stroke. It becomes automatic, especially when you see the positive results."

What will probably influence you the most is the person demonstrating it.

Which means "I, Dan White, would NEVER in a million years do anything this man demonstrates and says to do. (or not do)"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNgVe3T1fy4

Btw, the video is NOT an endorsement to play this way. It's to make a point. Hopefully you got it.

When playing under a lot of pressure, big tournament or for a nice chunk of change, you shouldn't be thinking about the things you're discussing above or hyper focusing on it like you are at home.

FINI

duckie said:

It’s not what feels right, but it is.......just to re word.

When things are feeling right....I’m shooting very well.

One of my little sayings when I’m start shooting poorly is..........Stop thinking.

What other people do is irrelevant. They haven't figured it out yet, and may never do so.

There are some very unnatural shooting positions. I can setup a shot that allows for the “standard type shooting position” and then just move the setup, keeping the same shot angle to a different part of the table requiring a unnatural shooting position.

Is sitting on the side of the table to get into position for a shot natural?

The shooting position has one requirement only........to allow for the right stroke to be used.......wether a natural type position or unnatural type shooting position.

Click to expand...

oh yes, I'll buy that.

If the balls are going in and the CB behaving and it feels right that's a winnar, winnar.

Lou Figueroa

Dan White said:

Hard to follow you without specifics. I'm still waiting on the book (and I'm not talking about that other guy's). :wink:

Click to expand...

I'll put you on the list.

I'm figuring I have at least 8 of them sold already, lol.

Lou Figueroa

Dan White said:

What's the release date -- this fall? Let's get the ball rolling so we can harangue you 5 years from now.

Click to expand...

The "book" is in disarray all over my computer.

I alway figured that one day, in my dotage, I would be hobbled to the point that I'd put it together bedside to keep myself amused.

There are a couple hundred pages printed out that would need editing... but then there is much more that I would want to include. My thought is to self-publish. Dedicate it to Gail. Perhaps bind it in blue Simonis. And then... only print 50 copies.

I want it to be rarer than Ponzi

Lou Figueroa

SpiderWebComm said:

One area mentioned that I've given a lot of thought to as well as experimentation is the wrist position. I think a lot of players just get down with a flat back of the hand and right wrist and attempt stroking it straight through that way. I used to.
It could roll or twitch into a bent or concave position or arched in a convex position.
It was a two way potential for throwing everything off into a miss because it changes the shaft angle and tip position coming into the CB at impact.
If I read your post correctly, you prefer a slightly concave position like Keith McCready but probably not as pronounced.
I found a slightly arched or convex position better for me. Either way works and one isn't better than another. But what it does do is stop the TWO way screw up and the wrist is more locked in place by setting it that way instead of being loose and floppy.

Click to expand...

Mister SpiderMan...and a hello to you.
You're very correct about that cocking the wrist thing.
Danny Jones (my boyhood idol) was back in town after winning the 9-Ball at the Stardust Open in '67 and the 9-Ball at Johnston City the following year. He was hanging out at York's Pool Room on Ivy Street and handing out very heavy spots.
He showed Johnny Carmichael, Buck Jordon, and myself the idea of the concave position very close to what McCready used.
BUT...he added a subtlety to it that is rarely seen nowadays. Danny said..."If you guys switch your grip and use this idea, you will have all the spots and easy action you can ever handle because nobody will believe you can make a ball this way".
Buddy Hall never really tipped it either. I don't know about McCready because I never saw him live..only on the youtube stuff.
It is something that becomes very natural and puts the stroke dead in the groove, regardless of the aiming system chosen.
Danny was quite a guy...he just never knew when it was time to pack it in. And all he'd ever done was hustle pool. I've asked many times if anyone knows where he is buried, but with no results.
Regards and stay safe.
P.L.

Dan White said:

On the contrary, I'm keen to understand your viewpoint. I never thought you or Lou or I really disagreed about any of this but generally the concepts are so vague that isn't a productive conversation. That's why I started out saying these things are difficult to discuss online. Nobody ever gets specific enough to have an actual conversation.

"Hyper focusing" is your word. What is the difference between hyper focusing on the elbow or the eyes as compared to hyper focusing on how the wrist is cocked? That's a real question and gets to my point. If I can't break down every element of my set up and stroke in detail then I don't really understand it and, I think, that opens me up to drifting away from what works. What's wrong with that?

In addition, what are these "other parts and areas" that make everything fall in line? Does that mean if I do those things "correctly" that I then don't have to think about how my hand is gripping the cue because it is now taken care of?

Give me something a little more concrete to go on.

Click to expand...

I think I get what you're saying. It's the same way a lot of grear tennis players learn a solid and accurate backhand. They consciously put their body in the position needed to hit the ball, paying attention to every detail -- grip pressure, the angle of the racquet head, the bending of the knees, placement of feet, the extended elbow, etc.... They might hold position for 10 minutes, taking it all in, how it looks, how it feels. They'll spend quite a while doing this before hitting any balls. And then after hitting balls they'll repeat this conscious deliberate effort of holding the stance. It's a good way to train the brain. Eventually all the deliberate processes become second nature, automatic.

Is this the approach you're using for your stroke?

Dan White said:

Stan is demonstrating that dropping the elbow after contact doesn't matter much. If you slow the video down and freeze it you'll see that he doesn't drop it until at or after contact. Certainly 99% of the exaggerated drop is after contact. I have occasionally commented that Stan has a rock solid elbow when he hits a ball, and thought that was a good thing.

I think you need to try this yourself multiple times to experience what it feels like. Not what you think the video shows. Set up with the elbow as high as his is set and then make the stroke with your own elbow lowering. If you waited until impact to start lowering from that height to that LOW at finish it would be hard to do without being obvious. Let it start lowering at the very end of your draw stroke to the start of your forward stroke and all the way through and still be that accurate.

Point two: When did I say that I was referring to elbow drop when I said that I play better with a fixed elbow? There is potentially left/right movement of the elbow, movement during the draw back, movement during the transition, and, lastly, movement during the forward stroke. Had you taken time to understand what I was saying, you'd understand that I find that keeping the elbow still during the drawback and transition was particularly helpful. When I am in good stroke my elbow probably drops to varying small degrees depending on the shot. "Elbow drop" is just one component of what I was referring to.

Don't worry about Lou's book or Stan's ever again. I think you should focus on your own book as "The Elbow Guru" for better pool. If this post doesn't illustrate where your concentration is centered, I don't know what is.

I'm pretty certain this is what Lou was referring to in his earlier post which is where it shouldn't be centered.

But hey, it would be unique and probably sell because I've never seen a book homing in on the elbow as the "key to unlock the door" for better pool.

Agreed. I never suggested otherwise. Still scratching my head as to what your objection is. It's OK though, I don't need to understand.

Click to expand...

I never stood up in the AZ courtroom and said, "Objection your honor". (as I turn to give an elbow into your side)

BC21 said:

I think I get what you're saying. It's the same way a lot of grear tennis players learn a solid and accurate backhand. They consciously put their body in the position needed to hit the ball, paying attention to every detail -- grip pressure, the angle of the racquet head, the bending of the knees, placement of feet, the extended elbow, etc.... They might hold position for 10 minutes, taking it all in, how it looks, how it feels. They'll spend quite a while doing this before hitting any balls. And then after hitting balls they'll repeat this conscious deliberate effort of holding the stance. It's a good way to train the brain. Eventually all the deliberate processes become second nature, automatic.

Is this the approach you're using for your stroke?

Click to expand...

Is this the approach you use for your pool stroke? I never have or want to.

Pro baseball players and pro golfers don't hold their bats and clubs in position to ingrain anything. They swing at balls and hit balls in practice to experience dynamic motion with the real thing and then analyze the results of where the ball goes.

In golf the closest thing to pool would be putting. What you described above has never been taught by any professional instructor to improve the accuracy of the putting stroke with the stop action/hold stuff...ever. This is what FEEL in motion is all about.

In tennis, if they in fact hold positions like that for lengths of time, I can definitely see it as an ISOMETRIC exercise to strengthen the muscles and improve stamina for those ultra long matches that go on forever. Then it comes down to the fittest not deteriorating at a time when the body wants to give up.

With pool, holding positions to ingrain a stroke is boolsheet. Actually, TOTAL BOOLSHEET!

I was watching a Christmas Chamber Music program a while back. The band consisted of cello, violins and a spinent piano.

The violinist were using their whole body to play. They moved their whole body as needed to produced the music not just their bow arm. They gave themselves to the music.

It occurred to me that the same principle applies in pool. It is the whole working together to produce the needed result, not separate parts.

If you concentrate on a part, the whole can not be used. You can not give yourself to pool when the whole is not used.

anyway........early morning ramblings...........

SpiderWebComm said:

Is this the approach you use for your pool stroke? I never have or want to.

Pro baseball players and pro golfers don't hold their bats and clubs in position to ingrain anything. They swing at balls and hit balls in practice to experience dynamic motion with the real thing and then analyze the results of where the ball goes.

In golf the closest thing to pool would be putting. What you described above has never been taught by any professional instructor to improve the accuracy of the putting stroke with the stop action/hold stuff...ever. This is what FEEL in motion is all about.

In tennis, if they in fact hold positions like that for lengths of time, I can definitely see it as an ISOMETRIC exercise to strengthen the muscles and improve stamina for those ultra long matches that go on forever. Then it comes down to the fittest not deteriorating at a time when the body wants to give up.

With pool, holding positions to ingrain a stroke is boolsheet. Actually, TOTAL BOOLSHEET!

Click to expand...

No, I don't use nor have ever used this approach for my pool stroke. But that's because my stroke has always felt natural, never awkward. The bridge hand, however, I do remember probably paying extra attention to, focusing on how my fingers and palm look and feel against the cloth.

And you are wrong about golfers not using the static position holds to help develop a feel for the swing. There are certain key swing points/positions that enable a great golf swing, and a good instructor will have you hold these positions to help develop a feel for each. He will even phsically move your arms or legs or shoulders, setting your body in position like you're a mannequin. He ask you to hold that pose and look at your wrists, your arms, the club, the ball, etc....pay attention to how everything feels at this point. He'll have you bring the club back super slowly and he'll stop you again, repeating the holding process, correcting any body alignment issues, asking you to focus on how everything feels. This swing grooving might be all you do for 30min. Then you'll hit some balls, intermittently stopping in your backswing or downswing to focus on how every feels and looks from there, from the top of the swing, from the hinge point, from a foot before ompact, etc....

It really is a very effective way to produce a great and consistent golf swing. I'm sure baseball players use similar slow motion or holding positions to hone their swings also, but I've never taken professional batting lessons, so I have no experience with that.

It's not a muscle strengthening excercise. It's a method of training the brain to recognize how certain muscles and positions are supposed to feel at keys points in a process. It can be applied to any skill that involves muscle memory and hand coordination, from pool to tennis or golf or baseball, or from violin to guitar or piano or whatever.

BC21 said:

And you are wrong about golfers not using the static position holds to help develop a feel for the swing. There are certain key swing points/positions that enable a great golf swing, and a good instructor will have you hold these positions to help develop a feel for each. He will even phsically move your arms or legs or shoulders, setting your body in position like you're a mannequin. He ask you to hold that pose and look at your wrists, your arms, the club, the ball, etc....pay attention to how everything feels at this point. He'll have you bring the club back super slowly and he'll stop you again, repeating the holding process, correcting any body alignment issues, asking you to focus on how everything feels. This swing grooving might be all you do for 30min. Then you'll hit some balls, intermittently stopping in your backswing or downswing to focus on how every feels and looks from there, from the top of the swing, from the hinge point, from a foot before ompact, etc....

NOPE! That's not the way it works. The positions are produced not by holding the position and looking at it for minutes at a time and ingraining it, but by the instructor altering the GRIP on the club, the posture of the player, his feet and body alignment, and how far or close he stands from the ball. There's also the height of the player, body type, and how the weight is distributed on his frame. THAT is how positions come to be.

Case in point, Jim Furyk swinging the club vs. Rickie Fowler. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgwVArw9xa8 Fowler: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q7V9XY7Ipw

Jon Rahm hand and wrist position at address, at the top of the backswing and down into impact. He and Dustin Johnson have the same BOWED wrist position at the top as we're talking about in the pool grip. Other players do NOT.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/jon-rahms-short-swing-is-long-on-power

It really is a very effective way to produce a great and consistent golf swing. I'm sure baseball players use similar slow motion or holding positions to hone their swings also, but I've never taken professional batting lessons, so I have no experience with that.

Oh sure they do. With a baseball coming at them 85-100 mph from the knees to the chest and everything in between with balls dropping down and curving all over the place. Get real.
It's not about getting into or holding a friggin' position during the swing. It's reactive to just getting the bat on the ball so it doesn't end up being a called strike 3 or getting hit with the ball. It's a wide strike zone and sometimes has to be swung on and hit outside of the strike zone.

It's not a muscle strengthening excercise. It's a method of training the brain to recognize how certain muscles and positions are supposed to feel at keys points in a process. It can be applied to any skill that involves muscle memory and hand coordination, from pool to tennis or golf or baseball, or from violin to guitar or piano or whatever.

Click to expand...

So are you an advocate of having almost your entire focus on the elbow during the stroke? Yes or no will suffice.

duckie said:

I was watching a Christmas Chamber Music program a while back. The band consisted of cello, violins and a spinent piano.

The violinist were using their whole body to play. They moved their whole body as needed to produced the music not just their bow arm. They gave themselves to the music.

It occurred to me that the same principle applies in pool. It is the whole working together to produce the needed result, not separate parts.

If you concentrate on a part, the whole can not be used. You can not give yourself to pool when the whole is not used.

anyway........early morning ramblings...........

Click to expand...

This is a great example of well developed feel. When these violinists were first learning how to hold the hold the bow, how to position their chin, the thumb and fingers of their fret hand, the angle of the wrist, elbow, arm and bow across the strings at different positions, etc.... it involved slow and deliberate attention to each moving part.

Eventually it all flows together in one fluid stream. But the reality of it is that it's actually a bunch of individual mechanical elements working as one unit, all orchestrated by a well practiced, well developed, subconscious portion of the brain. In other words, in the beginning it was conscious control of every movement, deliberate effort and attention. Eventually all those movements become embedded, no longer requiring conscious, deliberate control.

I agree with you 100%. With the pool stroke, it must be free flowing, automatic, whole. But it is comprised of several movements/pieces, so if it's not working properly one might have to dissect it and fix a piece before it can flow as smoothly and effortlessly as it should.

SpiderWebComm said:

So are you an advocate of having almost your entire focus on the elbow during the stroke? Yes or no will suffice.

Click to expand...

I am an advocate of not focusing on any physical body part during my stroke. Lately I've been focusing on timing, and that's enough to throw off any shot. I can't imagine focusing on my elbow, or my wrist or grip or anything else.

And of course a batter facing 85 to 100mph pitches isn't holding swing positions to get a feel for how to swing the bat. Just as a great golfer isn't holding his club still at the hinge point to understand where this should occur and how it should feel. Lol. Great tennis players don't hold their backhand position for 10min, etc... These people have already developed a feel for this stuff.

What I'm talking about is a method for DEVELOPING feel, skill, hand eye coordination, etc... If you've already developed a feel for these things, swinging a bat or club or racquet, or stroking a pool cue, then the only time you could benefit from this training technique is when something is no longer working, when some little element of motion or feel is lost or has become inconsistent.

I have a friend who fell off a ladder and broke his arm in 18 different places. He was a hell of guitar player before the accident. After a couple surgeries he was able to start playing guitar again. But he had to relearn it because his fret hand no longer worked the same. His fingers no longer feel like they used to feel. He has been working on developing that feel again with a hand that doesn't function like it once did. He holds a chord now and it feels awkward. So he holds it there for several minutes, looking at at his hand, paying attention to what the chord feels like, reprogramming his brain to connect the visual with the physical sensation.

Inspiration can from anywhere as long as you remain open.

Bruce Lee made this statement........”a martial artist is not tense, nor relaxed, but ready”.

I noticed that during long.....at the table, no breaks....practice sessions, I would slowly become tensioner making for not very smooth movement and my pace of play became quicker, hence game goes in toilet.

I started doing what I call reset after each shot. I would take the time to be ready to move onto the next shot which slowed my pace of play.

The only reason I’m sharing this stuff is to illustrate how personal a path it is in getting to where you are playing your best.

Like music lessons......they get ya started, but at some point the music has to become yours......which requires a different path for all.

duckie said:

......

Like music lessons......they get ya started, but at some point the music has to become yours......which requires a different path for all.

Click to expand...

I'm going to steal these words. :thumbup:

BC21 said:

I am an advocate of not focusing on any physical body part during my stroke. Lately I've been focusing on timing, and that's enough to throw off any shot. I can't imagine focusing on my elbow, or my wrist or grip or anything else.

Thank you, we're in agreement. Pass this on to Mr. White.

What I'm talking about is a method for DEVELOPING feel, skill, hand eye coordination, etc... If you've already developed a feel for these things, swinging a bat or club or racquet, or stroking a pool cue, then the only time you could benefit from this training technique is when something is no longer working, when some little element of motion or feel is lost or has become inconsistent.

Every sport has fundamentals. When things turn south, and they do in everything, return to fundamentals but don't obsess over just one. Amateur players in any sport do not have the ability to see themselves and even if they did, they don't have the "EYE" or knowledge to diagnose the real cause of problems. They work on areas not needed because it's misdiagnosed. Which is why pro players in all sports have a valued and trustworthy pro instructor. More so for the diagnosis than the fix. The fix is usually a simple one. How many times have you tried playing "doctor" for yourself when having a bad pain or feeling ill? We all have. Many times it's not correct and we need a real medical Dr. to diagnose and cure.

I have a friend who fell off a ladder and broke his arm in 18 different places. He was a hell of guitar player before the accident. After a couple surgeries he was able to start playing guitar again. But he had to relearn it because his fret hand no longer worked the same. His fingers no longer feel like they used to feel. He has been working on developing that feel again with a hand that doesn't function like it once did. He holds a chord now and it feels awkward. So he holds it there for several minutes, looking at at his hand, paying attention to what the chord feels like, reprogramming his brain to connect the visual with the physical sensation.

Click to expand...

In an extreme case like this, it's totally understandable.