The Hal Houle Post

ROTFLMAO! You are really grasping at straws trying to deflect the whole thing and are trapped like a rat with your own words and have been told by Lou, Brian, and me.

Poor Danny boy.

WHEN IS THE ELBOW BOOK FOR POOL COMING OUT?!

LMAO 45 - 50 years of playing pool since childhood and now lost in a maze of nightmares about
THE ELBOW!

Dan White said:

I've played and been around a lot of tennis in years past and I get what you are saying. I can't say I've seen anyone hold a position for literally 10 minutes, but it sounds like a really interesting concept. I know you've read a lot on this kind of thing so I might give it a try. I do recall renting a VHS tape of pro players hitting balls in slow motion with soft music playing. The idea was to absorb yourself in the motions they were using and kind of soak it in. Not sure if it worked but I did try an interesting experiment one time on the court. I pretended that Steffi Graf had possessed my skeletal structure and that I had to mimic whatever she would do. I have no idea why I picked her at that moment. No transgender jokes, please. The point is that it worked really well for quite awhile. She tended to let the ball get almost past her on the forehand, so that wasn't a good practice for me, but you get the point.

Back to pool. The approach I've been using is not so much freezing in place, although the pool stroke kind of allows for that naturally. My end goal was to be able to deliver the cue perfectly straight at all speeds. I played around with the variables as needed to get there. Sometimes I went the wrong way and had to try a new approach, and sometimes I found things that always seemed to put me closer to the goal. Keeping the elbow still, relaxed grip/fingers, slowing down the tempo/quiet eye -- those are keepers.

There was a pro golfer being interviewed one time and he was talking about performance and what to do if he wasn't playing up to his ability. He said, "I know what my tendencies are" and that he was usually able to correct problems quickly because of that knowledge. I just think that is smart. If you know how all the components fit together and what they need to do for success, then you may well be a more consistent player. That does not mean that you have to think about any of these things while playing, but of course you already know that.

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I understand what you're saying about the elbow. It's no different than a golfer tweaking with every aspect of his swing, maybe changing his grip from overlapped pinkies to linked/intertwined pinkies, or tucking the elbow in or bending the wrists out, etc... By experimenting and trying new things you learn what the effects are for each moving part, making it possible, perhaps, to resolve unwanted issues.

If you feel your stroke could be more consistent, more in tune, then a complete dismantling and looking at every moving part makes good sense. For you it's the elbow position. For others it might be the wrist.

The end result, the complete stroke, should be one fluid piece of work, like Mozart's piano sonata no. 16, which is comprised of numerous working parts/pieces, musical phrases, that when joined together become one solid work. Not until every piece is developed and perfected do they form the complete work. If you're a pianist you might find yourself dismantling sonata 16 several times to work on one part or another so that the whole piece flows more freely, one fluid movement, despite the fact that it's actually a combination of several moving parts.
https://youtu.be/qjk-YRuQZDE.

BC21 said:

I'm going to steal these words. :thumbup:

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Please do...........

For me, the best practice for my stroke is pocket speed practice. Just putting enough stroke on the CB so that the OB barely goes into the pocket. Plus, I stay in position until the OB drops.

I seldom, if ever, seeing anyone doing pocket speed practice.

The reason being,.......you have to slow your stroke down, requiring really good muscle control.

And........I build my stance around my grip.....now that’s gonna sound strange.

BC21 said:

I understand what you're saying about the elbow. It's no different than a golfer tweaking with every aspect of his swing, maybe changing his grip from overlapped pinkies to linked/intertwined pinkies, or tucking the elbow in or bending the wrists out, etc... By experimenting and trying new things you learn what the effects are for each moving part, making it possible, perhaps, to resolve unwanted issues.

Click to expand...

When a golfer is doing all of the above, he's aka a high handicap HACKER. He could be a beginner trying to figure things out on his own or just a struggling long time hacker who's favorite song is "I Did It My Way".

That's all very basic stuff which should have been ingrained early on by a teaching pro with a strong foundation. Grip, stance, posture, and alignment.

When things go haywire for low handicap amateurs and touring pros, sure they have enough knowledge to tweak a little something here and there, but they usually go straight to their instructor who looks at all active parts in the above. The grip, stance, posture, and alignment control everything including the elbow which could be a problem in golf also known as a "flying elbow." It gets too far away from the body and is pointing toward the rear instead of straight down.

The elbow doesn't have a mind of it's own and not the area to focus on directly in trying to alter it. In pool, just like golf, the parts to focus on are grip, stance, posture, and alignment. One or more of them need to be tweaked or altered to influence the upper arm, forearm, and hand. The elbow is just the connector, not the engine.

Lou didn't say that directly in his earlier posts but alluded to it. And he's dead on. And I'm saying it right here and now.

Whether it's golf, tennis, or pool, it amazes me how a good number of people heavily into the sports will stand there and proudly say, " Ah neva had a lesson in mah life. Ahm all self tawt and figur it out on mah own." And my thoughts are, "No SH*T...it shows."

......duplicate

SpiderWebComm said:

When a golfer is doing all of the above, he's aka a high handicap HACKER. He could be a beginner trying to figure things out on his own or just a struggling long time hacker who's favorite song is "I Did It My Way".

That's all very basic stuff which should have been ingrained early on by a teaching pro with a strong foundation. Grip, stance, posture, and alignment.

When things go haywire for low handicap amateurs and touring pros, sure they have enough knowledge to tweak a little something here and there, but they usually go straight to their instructor who looks at all active parts in the above. The grip, stance, posture, and alignment control everything including the elbow which could be a problem in golf also known as a "flying elbow." It gets too far away from the body and is pointing toward the rear instead of straight down.

The elbow doesn't have a mind of it's own and not the area to focus on directly in trying to alter it. In pool, just like golf, the parts to focus on are grip, stance, posture, and alignment. One or more of them need to be tweaked or altered to influence the upper arm, forearm, and hand. The elbow is just the connector, not the engine.

Lou didn't say that directly in his earlier posts but alluded to it. And he's dead on. And I'm saying it right here and now.

Whether it's golf, tennis, or pool, it amazes me how a good number of people heavily into the sports will stand there and proudly say, " Ah neva had a lesson in mah life. Ahm all self tawt and figur it out on mah own." And my thoughts are, "No SH*T...it shows."

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So you're saying that only hackers self-analyze every moving part of their golf stroke, or pool stroke, because accomplished players have instructors that do this for them?

You might find it amazing, but millions of people everyday are learning and developing things all on their own, complicated skills from musicianship to sports, gaming, business...the list is endless. And you assume they do this because of some superiority complex, as if they all think their way is better than someone else's. But that's not it. They do it because they enjoy the process. They enjoy learning, discovering how things work, figuring out puzzles and solving problems. These are the types that want more than just an answer to a problem....they want to know how to solve for that answer. They are also the types that come up with new inventions, creations, better applications, better processes, more effective and efficient ways of doing things, etc....

Fact is, most people just want answers, solutions, resolutions. They don't care how the answer came to be or why it is what it is. They aren't interested in learning how to solve for that answer or solution themselves. And that's fine -- they don't have to be interested in that part of the process. But there will always be others out there that are interested in it. So while one person might be content to peel the stickers off a rubik's cube to arrange all the colors, another person is actually trying to figure out all the moves to solve it without peeling the stickers off, or without calling a pro to come over and show how to do it. They enjoy the process. They don't just want the solution, and they don't want someone to do it for them.

BC21 said:

So you're saying that only hackers self-analyze every moving part of their golf stroke, or pool stroke, because accomplished players have instructors that do this for them?

Lord help me...here we go again. NO that's not what I'm saying.

If hackers do it they're pretty much doomed because they don't have the knowledge to call on so they're more than likely in need of the important fundamentals to be taught and ingrained first. If a better player is having problems, sure they can make corrections from experience. But enough to take them to the highest level in their league or gambling? Probably not. The problem for ALL of us is WE CAN'T SEE OURSELVES. We only "think" everything is in line as it should be. Plus it could be a flat out misdiagnosis. What WE think is the problem that needs addressed could really be something else not considered but a trained eye can spot it in a flash.

You might find it amazing, but millions of people everyday are learning and developing things all on their own, complicated skills from musicianship to sports, gaming, business...the list is endless. And you assume they do this because of some superiority complex, as if they all think their way is better than someone else's. But that's not it. They do it because they enjoy the process. They enjoy learning, discovering how things work, figuring out puzzles and solving problems. These are the types that want more than just an answer to a problem....they want to know how to solve for that answer. They are also the types that come up with new inventions, creations, better applications, better processes, more effective and efficient ways of doing things, etc....

Didn't take long for the novel length analogies and comparisons to something.

Fact is, most people just want answers, solutions, resolutions. They don't care how the answer came to be or why it is what it is. They aren't interested in learning how to solve for that answer or solution themselves. And that's fine -- they don't have to be interested in that part of the process. But there will always be others out there that are interested in it. So while one person might be content to peel the stickers off a rubik's cube to arrange all the colors, another person is actually trying to figure out all the moves to solve it without peeling the stickers off, or without calling a pro to come over and show how to do it. They enjoy the process. They don't just want the solution, and they don't want someone to do it for them.

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That's nice. Hail to the Rubik's cube solvers.

BC21 said:

I am an advocate of not focusing on any physical body part during my stroke. Lately I've been focusing on timing, and that's enough to throw off any shot. I can't imagine focusing on my elbow, or my wrist or grip or anything else.

And of course a batter facing 85 to 100mph pitches isn't holding swing positions to get a feel for how to swing the bat. Just as a great golfer isn't holding his club still at the hinge point to understand where this should occur and how it should feel. Lol. Great tennis players don't hold their backhand position for 10min, etc... These people have already developed a feel for this stuff.

What I'm talking about is a method for DEVELOPING feel, skill, hand eye coordination, etc... If you've already developed a feel for these things, swinging a bat or club or racquet, or stroking a pool cue, then the only time you could benefit from this training technique is when something is no longer working, when some little element of motion or feel is lost or has become inconsistent.

I have a friend who fell off a ladder and broke his arm in 18 different places. He was a hell of guitar player before the accident. After a couple surgeries he was able to start playing guitar again. But he had to relearn it because his fret hand no longer worked the same. His fingers no longer feel like they used to feel. He has been working on developing that feel again with a hand that doesn't function like it once did. He holds a chord now and it feels awkward. So he holds it there for several minutes, looking at at his hand, paying attention to what the chord feels like, reprogramming his brain to connect the visual with the physical sensation.

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Many years ago I had the chance to visit the US Olympic training facility in CO.

One of the things they do for the swimmers is to put them in a harness and then pretty much drag them through the water faster than the swimmer's fastest time so that they can feel what their bodies parts are doing when going that fast. I thought it was pretty cool.

Lou Figueroa

SpiderWebComm said:

That's nice. Hail to the Rubik's cube solvers.

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Mister SpiderMan, sir.
To use an oblique quote from the Holy scriptures...."you're casting pearls before swine".
I have observed people who "just have to know everything about everything and how everything works", etc. etc. etc. all my life.
They're what I refer to as informed fools....after they're finished trifling with one thing, they jump to another thing. Then to another...then to another....then to another. It is never ending.
They live for the search itself....instead of finding resolution.
In the world of reality they're called a "jack of all trades and a master of none".
Hold 'er in the road, friend.
Regards,
P.L.

SpiderWebComm said:

If hackers do it they're pretty much doomed because they don't have the knowledge to call on so they're more than likely in need of the important fundamentals to be taught and ingrained first. If a better player is having problems, sure they can make corrections from experience. But enough to take them to the highest level in their league or gambling? Probably not. The problem for ALL of us is WE CAN'T SEE OURSELVES. We only "think" everything is in line as it should be. Plus it could be a flat out misdiagnosis. What WE think is the problem that needs addressed could really be something else not considered but a trained eye can spot it in a flash.
........

That's nice. Hail to the Rubik's cube solvers.

Click to expand...

Yes, it's very helpful to have someone watching your stroke to help look for flaws. You can also record yourself on video and self-analyze your stroke. But you're right, if you don't have the knowledge to know what you're looking for, then you're likely not going to pinpoint a specific flaw or problem.

The two us differ on the means of acquiring that knowledge. You seem to be of the mindset that instructors alone have the knowledge to spot or recognize stroke flaws, and there's no chance a player can do it without the professional guidance of an instructor. And I don't believe that. A simple test can prove that any player with basic fundamental skills can diagnose their stroke with just a little experimentation on the fundamental parts of the stroke. Bend your wrist in, or out, for example. Does this cause you to overcut or undercut a given shot? Tuck your elbow in, or move it out. What does this do as far far shot results? This is what Dan is talking about, and I'm sure he has the knowledge to know the effects of any little change he makes, just as you or I could easily discover the effects of any little changes we make in any part of our stroke. We may not always realize it though when a flaw or bad habit creeps in, but we can certainly analyze our own strokes if we wanted to or felt like we needed to.

I'm of the George Carlin school of thought when it comes to "self help" or "self taught". Nowadays a person can read a book or watch a YouTube clip and learn how to do almost anything they wanna know how to do. That is not self help, as Carlin said, that is book or video help.

Neverthelsss, with help or not, a person must practice what they've learned until they can actually do it every time. This is where individual effort comes in, where one can honestly say, "I taught myself how to do it." So knowledge can be acquired with help from books and videos, but applying that knowledge and putting it to practice is a self-help/self-taught process, unless you have a coach or an instructor making every little correction for you along the way. Short of that, you're on your own. And if you're a beginner it could be a long road, depending on the quality of your problem solving skills and practice habits. For experienced players, an instructor may or may not be needed, again depending on your problem solving skills and practice habits.

lfigueroa said:

Many years ago I had the chance to visit the US Olympic training facility in CO.

One of the things they do for the swimmers is to put them in a harness and then pretty much drag them through the water faster than the swimmer's fastest time so that they can feel what their bodies parts are doing when going that fast. I thought it was pretty cool.

Lou Figueroa

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A similar technique is used with aspiring musicians. Try to play along with piece of music at a tempo that's too fast to keep up. You'll immediately recognize the parts that need the most work because you'll feel no connection with those parts, no sensation of even almost being able to play those parts. So then you work on those parts, very slowy, deliberately, until you can bump up the speed. Then work at that speed, etc...

Low500 said:

Mister SpiderMan, sir.
To use an oblique quote from the Holy scriptures...."you're casting pearls before swine".
I have observed people who "just have to know everything about everything and how everything works", etc. etc. etc. all my life.
They're what I refer to as informed fools....after they're finished trifling with one thing, they jump to another thing. Then to another...then to another....then to another. It is never ending.
They live for the search itself....instead of finding resolution.
In the world of reality they're called a "jack of all trades and a master of none".
Hold 'er in the road, friend.
Regards,
P.L.

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I would rather be stranded with a Jack-of-all-trades than with a master of one trade, unless that person just happens to be a master of whatever it takes to rescue us. Lol

Fact is, not everyone is a "Macgyver", but most people are thankful or appreciative for those who are. And others are just envious.

BC21 said:

Yes, it's very helpful to have someone watching your stroke to help look for flaws. You can also record yourself on video and self-analyze your stroke. But you're right, if you don't have the knowledge to know what you're looking for, then you're likely not going to pinpoint a specific flaw or problem.

The two us differ on the means of acquiring that knowledge. You seem to be of the mindset that instructors alone have the knowledge to spot or recognize stroke flaws, and there's no chance a player can do it without the professional guidance of an instructor.

Where in the hell did I say that?


And I don't believe that. A simple test can prove that any player with basic fundamental skills can diagnose their stroke with just a little experimentation on the fundamental parts of the stroke. Bend your wrist in, or out, for example. Does this cause you to overcut or undercut a given shot? Tuck your elbow in, or move it out. What does this do as far far shot results?

Those could be a couple of ways to experiment which is pretty obvious and where most might start. Although there aren't necessarily very many who are knowledgeable regarding all of the variations of the grip and grip pressure.

Lets forget about the above. You fashion yourself as some kind of all knowing MacGyver. Think outside the box. Is it possible that the stance could solve all of the above to the point where you don't even have to think of the crap above?

Things like where the feet are positioned for the shot line? How wide or narrow the feet are from each other. How about the angle of the hips and upper torso. Where is that facing? Is it down the line like a snooker player with the feet square to each other and played off the right foot? Are the hips and upper torso partially turned to the side? Are the hips and torso fully turned to the side and not facing much of the shot line so it's almost like stroking side saddle? (I've seen some pros shoot this way) ALL of the above will alter the stroke and where the elbow is and what it does without thinking or focusing on the elbow. Maybe THAT is what he should be experimenting on. Or an instructor could tell him to do it and he'd never have to think of his elbow again.

I'm of the George Carlin school of thought when it comes to "self help" or "self taught". Nowadays a person can read a book or watch a YouTube clip and learn how to do almost anything they wanna know how to do. That is not self help, as Carlin said, that is book or video help.

Yeah right. And they're trying everything but not the right thing...FOR THEM. It's throwing sh*t on a wall and hoping it sticks. It's not one thing that's the Genie in the bottle. It's multiple pieces that complete the entire puzzle.

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Here's the part I'm most glad about and it's I'M NOT YOU or THINK LIKE YOU.

Low500 said:

Mister SpiderMan, sir.
To use an oblique quote from the Holy scriptures...."you're casting pearls before swine".
I have observed people who "just have to know everything about everything and how everything works", etc. etc. etc. all my life.
They're what I refer to as informed fools....after they're finished trifling with one thing, they jump to another thing. Then to another...then to another....then to another. It is never ending.
They live for the search itself....instead of finding resolution.
In the world of reality they're called a "jack of all trades and a master of none".
Hold 'er in the road, friend.
Regards,
P.L.

Click to expand...

You're 100% correct. It's a sure way to go some place and get p*ssed off for hours even if you started off in a great mood.

SpiderWebComm said:

That's nice. Hail to the Rubik's cube solvers.

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I'd say Hal Houle was one. Or at least it seems like he was someone who went beyond the norm to find other ways of doing things, rather than just sitting back and sticking to or accepting the methods everyone else has been using for decades.

I didn't know him, but it's obvious Hal was the creative type, the self-taught type that enjoyed making his own way, discovering and inventing better ways or multiple ways to do things, ect.... the very type some here would dismiss as a "know-it-all" or a "Jack-of-all-trades but master of none". Lol. That's irony at its best!

BC21 said:

I'd say Hal Houle was one. Or at least it seems like he was someone who went beyond the norm to find other ways of doing things, rather than just sitting back and sticking to or accepting the methods everyone else has been using for decades.

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Now you've made a good strong point. But another person should be added right along with Hal...Stan Shuffett. The creative outside the box thinking was waaaay out there for both of them to create what they did.

And as a result, they been villified and crapped on for years and years.

BC21 said:

The two us differ on the means of acquiring that knowledge. You seem to be of the mindset that instructors alone have the knowledge to spot or recognize stroke flaws, and there's no chance a player can do it without the professional guidance of an instructor.

Click to expand...

SpiderWebComm said:

Where in the hell did I say that?

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You said it here....I put it in bold....

SpiderWebComm said:

Every sport has fundamentals. When things turn south, and they do in everything, return to fundamentals but don't obsess over just one. Amateur players in any sport do not have the ability to see themselves and even if they did, they don't have the "EYE" or knowledge to diagnose the real cause of problems.

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I can agree that beginners don't have the eye or knowledge to diagnose real problems, but I'd say the majority of experienced ameteur players do. Hell, I'd even go as far as saying that with the tons of instructional material available in books and on YouTube, even a beginner nowadays has access to the knowledge that'll allow them to self-analyze and diagnose their own pool stroke or golf swing or whatever. It just takes more effort than running to an instructor for immediate answers. But since most people just want answers, it makes better sense to get help from an instructor if you don't already have the knowledge needed to self-analyze.

SpiderWebComm said:

Now you've made a good strong point. But another person should be added right along with Hal...Stan Shuffett. The creative outside the box thinking was waaaay out there for both of them to create what they did.

And as a result, they been villified and crapped on for years and years.

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I agree. See... we do agree on some things.

Stan is also a musician, which typically means a creative type of person. In my experience, the musician-creative association doesn't work with singers though, not if they can't play any instruments. I tease my bass player and tell him he is no more creative than the run of the mill singer. But it's just a joke....he's a genius.