Ferrule material and deflection

Straightpool_99

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
I have a shaft which I believe has a full length Ivorine ferrule. This shaft deflects the ball more than any I've ever tried, but it does hit very solid, which I guess is what the cuemaker was going for.

Question 1: Could I reduce the deflection noticably by changing the ferrule material only, with the same length?

Question 2: Would cutting the ferrule length down to a minimum be a better solution (I know I'd loose some length, but it might be worth the trade-off)?

Have anyone ever tried any of the above options? I believe Ivorine is one of the heavier ferrule materials, which is why I ask. I probably won't do it anyway, but I thought the idea is worth discussing.
 
Bustah360

Bustah360

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think you may get a better response and feedback from the "Ask the Cuemaker" section.
 
ideologist

ideologist

I don't never exaggerate
Silver Member
Doing either would reduce deflection. I think a half-inch Mason's Micarta ferrule is the nuts for lower deflection.
 
Shawn Armstrong

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
Neither of your fixes will do anything to affect the amount of cueball deflection your shaft produces. The softer ferrule would help very slightly, but the shaft taper and weight will do more to determine its deflection characteristics than anything else.

What is the shaft taper? Long pro, or conical and stiff? There are a few things you can do to tune a shaft for lower cueball deflection. Changing the ferrule will give you very little in return vs other fixes.
 
mortuarymike-nv

mortuarymike-nv

mortuarymike-nv
Silver Member
shaft

Cut the ferrule off, bore the tip end of the shaft about 6 inches, fill the hole with spray foam put on a wood ferrule.
 
Colin Colenso

Colin Colenso

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Shawn Armstrong said:
Neither of your fixes will do anything to affect the amount of cueball deflection your shaft produces. The softer ferrule would help very slightly, but the shaft taper and weight will do more to determine its deflection characteristics than anything else.

What is the shaft taper? Long pro, or conical and stiff? There are a few things you can do to tune a shaft for lower cueball deflection. Changing the ferrule will give you very little in return vs other fixes.
Click to expand...
It's proven that shaft taper has negligible effect on squirt, or deflection as snooker players who generally know nothing about such things call it.

Time to do some study on the subject Shawn, instead of claiming authority on subjects you are guessing about.
 
ideologist

ideologist

I don't never exaggerate
Silver Member
Shawn Armstrong said:
Neither of your fixes will do anything to affect the amount of cueball deflection your shaft produces. The softer ferrule would help very slightly, but the shaft taper and weight will do more to determine its deflection characteristics than anything else.

What is the shaft taper? Long pro, or conical and stiff? There are a few things you can do to tune a shaft for lower cueball deflection. Changing the ferrule will give you very little in return vs other fixes.
Click to expand...

Um, it is proven that reducing end mass is a big factor in lowering deflection.

Micarta is lighter than ivorine. A shorter ferrule is lighter than a longer one.
 
Shawn Armstrong

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
Colin Colenso said:
It's proven that shaft taper has negligible effect on squirt, or deflection as snooker players who generally know nothing about such things call it.

Time to do some study on the subject Shawn, instead of claiming authority on subjects you are guessing about.
Click to expand...

Colin, I used to make cues. And I'll tell you, I did a ton of study on tapers and shaft deflection. Shaft mass has the greatest amount of effect on deflection. A thicker taper has more wood, which usually means more mass. If you bore the centre of the shaft out, say, the first 6-7" like Predator or OB, you reduce the deflection. However, if you bore the middle out of a SW tapered shaft that is 4.5oz, and do the same to a Pechauer, longer taper, same tip diameter, and lower weight (due to less wood as it has a longer taper), the longer tapered shaft will have less cueball deflection.

The reason the stiffer tapers on the new conically tapered shafts like the OB Pro and Z2 shafts have less cueball deflection than their larger tipped counterparts are reduced endmass.

I was being brief in my initial response. Is the above explanation more to your liking, Colin?
 
Shawn Armstrong

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
ideologist said:
Um, it is proven that reducing end mass is a big factor in lowering deflection.

Micarta is lighter than ivorine. A shorter ferrule is lighter than a longer one.
Click to expand...

Yep, but how much lighter will the front end be with a simple ferrule change? Trust me, not all that much. As MM said, bore the shaft out a good 6-7", and the deflection properties will vastly change. I have a bunch of cues I tinkered with, using different ferrule materials. If you bore the shaft out, the ferrule material makes a very slight difference to cueball deflection, but changes the feel. If you need proof, play an OB1 vs an OB Classic. Exact same shaft, different ferrule design. Both low deflection. Different feel with regards to hit.
 
Colin Colenso

Colin Colenso

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Shawn Armstrong said:
Colin, I used to make cues. And I'll tell you, I did a ton of study on tapers and shaft deflection. Shaft mass has the greatest amount of effect on deflection. A thicker taper has more wood, which usually means more mass. If you bore the centre of the shaft out, say, the first 6-7" like Predator or OB, you reduce the deflection. However, if you bore the middle out of a SW tapered shaft that is 4.5oz, and do the same to a Pechauer, longer taper, same tip diameter, and lower weight (due to less wood as it has a longer taper), the longer tapered shaft will have less cueball deflection.

The reason the stiffer tapers on the new conically tapered shafts like the OB Pro and Z2 shafts have less cueball deflection than their larger tipped counterparts are reduced endmass.

I was being brief in my initial response. Is the above explanation more to your liking, Colin?
Click to expand...

Seems so Shawn, as you seem to be admitting that tip end mass is the decisive variable in deflection. Leaves me confused about any supposed role taper has though!
 
ctyhntr

ctyhntr

RIP Kelly
Silver Member
You can do a search on the forum. I recall someone posted an index for different ferrule materials. 1.0 being maple and Ivory at the high end at 2+.

The basic principle behind Predator's low deflection is reduce net mass at the end of the shaft. If you look at older Predator shafts, you can see the ferrule getting shorter, and lighter as they strive to offer lower indexes of deflection. OB's approach is to make the ferrule out of the same material (maple) as the shaft.

Good luck, and please don't get totally fixated on deflection. It isn't necessary undesirable.
 
Shawn Armstrong

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
Colin Colenso said:
Seems so Shawn, as you seem to be admitting that tip end mass is the decisive variable in deflection. Leaves me confused about any supposed role taper has though!
Click to expand...

A thicker taper that started steadily back from the ferrule will have a higher end mass than a shaft with the same sized ferrule, with a longer pro style taper, given that the materials of the shaft are the same. The wedge shape will guarantee there is more wood in the shaft, thus increasing end mass due to the presence of more material.

Still confused? I could take a conical tapered piece of balsa wood. It would deflect less than a slim tapered piece of maple, due to less mass in the shaft. The key to reducing cueball deflection is designing a shaft that deflects when it contacts the cueball.

If I found a super light piece of maple, and gave it a conical taper, then found a super heavy piece of maple, and gave it a long pro taper, the deflection of the cueball would be determined by the total mass of the shaft in the first 8-10" of the shaft. Whichever is heavier will cause more cueball deflection.

In the OP's post, he asked about changing the ferrule, or cutting the shaft down to reduce deflection. Neither will do much of anything to reduce cueball deflection. That was the point of my post. Not to debate about construction, shaft end mass, etc. I was just trying to offer him some actual practical help.
 
dr_dave

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Straightpool_99 said:
I have a shaft which I believe has a full length Ivorine ferrule. This shaft deflects the ball more than any I've ever tried, but it does hit very solid, which I guess is what the cuemaker was going for.

Question 1: Could I reduce the deflection noticably by changing the ferrule material only, with the same length?

Question 2: Would cutting the ferrule length down to a minimum be a better solution (I know I'd loose some length, but it might be worth the trade-off)?

Have anyone ever tried any of the above options? I believe Ivorine is one of the heavier ferrule materials, which is why I ask. I probably won't do it anyway, but I thought the idea is worth discussing.
Click to expand...
Anything you can do to reduce the weight of the shaft near the tip will reduce squirt (AKA cue ball deflection). The different ways of doing this are described on the shaft "endmass" resource page.

Reducing the ferrule weight (by using a lighter material or smaller size) can certainly help, but turning down or coring out the end of the shaft will make a bigger difference.

Good luck,
Dave
 
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Blue Hog ridr

Blue Hog ridr

World Famous Fisherman.
Silver Member
Here is an idea, based very loosely on a Calgary Cue makers shaft design. I don't know if it would work, or look that great.

Instead of cutting the length of your shaft down. Make a 1/2" wood ferrule, and then use 1/2" Isoplast ferrule for the end.

Isoplast was one of the original Predator materials. there is a guy in the machinery forum that sells them.

Other than one other line, it probably wouldn't be very noticeable.

If you used a pre made OB wood ferrule, it might step it up in the coolness Dept.

Necessity is the mother of invention. Always more than one way to skin a cat.

Other than that, I re worked a cheapy EBay cue and because of the joint collars, which were redone, it ended up being 57".

Great for the bar box and you don't notice the missing inch. Approx 1/2" short on the butt and on the shaft.
 
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Colin Colenso

Colin Colenso

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Shawn Armstrong said:
A thicker taper that started steadily back from the ferrule will have a higher end mass than a shaft with the same sized ferrule, with a longer pro style taper, given that the materials of the shaft are the same. The wedge shape will guarantee there is more wood in the shaft, thus increasing end mass due to the presence of more material.

Still confused? I could take a conical tapered piece of balsa wood. It would deflect less than a slim tapered piece of maple, due to less mass in the shaft. The key to reducing cueball deflection is designing a shaft that deflects when it contacts the cueball.

If I found a super light piece of maple, and gave it a conical taper, then found a super heavy piece of maple, and gave it a long pro taper, the deflection of the cueball would be determined by the total mass of the shaft in the first 8-10" of the shaft. Whichever is heavier will cause more cueball deflection.

In the OP's post, he asked about changing the ferrule, or cutting the shaft down to reduce deflection. Neither will do much of anything to reduce cueball deflection. That was the point of my post. Not to debate about construction, shaft end mass, etc. I was just trying to offer him some actual practical help.
Click to expand...
Dr. Dave's video here estimate no squirt influence past 6 to 8 inches from the tip: http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-32.htm

I'm not aware of it being proved, but I've assumed the effect of an mass diminishes in proportion to the distance from the tip and hence, a 1mm thickening of the shaft from ferrule to 6 inches back would produce negligible additional squirt. Perhaps the equivalent of a 0.1mm reduction of tip diameter.

It would be interesting if such tests could be done accurately, such that aspects like conical tapering and shaft stiffness influences could be quantified.
 
K

KMRUNOUT

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Shawn Armstrong said:
Neither of your fixes will do anything to affect the amount of cueball deflection your shaft produces. The softer ferrule would help very slightly, but the shaft taper and weight will do more to determine its deflection characteristics than anything else.

What is the shaft taper? Long pro, or conical and stiff? There are a few things you can do to tune a shaft for lower cueball deflection. Changing the ferrule will give you very little in return vs other fixes.
Click to expand...

This is about as wrong as it gets. The ferrule material and size has an enormous impact on deflection, because it is the primary weight in the last few inches of the shaft. This is the only factor that has a *significant* impact on deflection.

Shawn, don't mean to pick on you but where are you getting your info?

KMRUNOUT
 
K

KMRUNOUT

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Shawn Armstrong said:
Yep, but how much lighter will the front end be with a simple ferrule change? Trust me, not all that much. As MM said, bore the shaft out a good 6-7", and the deflection properties will vastly change. I have a bunch of cues I tinkered with, using different ferrule materials. If you bore the shaft out, the ferrule material makes a very slight difference to cueball deflection, but changes the feel. If you need proof, play an OB1 vs an OB Classic. Exact same shaft, different ferrule design. Both low deflection. Different feel with regards to hit.
Click to expand...

And the OB1 has considerably less deflection. This is due almost entirely to the difference in ferrule material.

You really need to study this topic a bit more.

KMRUNOUT
 
K

KMRUNOUT

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Shawn Armstrong said:
A thicker taper that started steadily back from the ferrule will have a higher end mass than a shaft with the same sized ferrule, with a longer pro style taper, given that the materials of the shaft are the same. The wedge shape will guarantee there is more wood in the shaft, thus increasing end mass due to the presence of more material.

Still confused? I could take a conical tapered piece of balsa wood. It would deflect less than a slim tapered piece of maple, due to less mass in the shaft. The key to reducing cueball deflection is designing a shaft that deflects when it contacts the cueball.

If I found a super light piece of maple, and gave it a conical taper, then found a super heavy piece of maple, and gave it a long pro taper, the deflection of the cueball would be determined by the total mass of the shaft in the first 8-10" of the shaft. Whichever is heavier will cause more cueball deflection.

In the OP's post, he asked about changing the ferrule, or cutting the shaft down to reduce deflection. Neither will do much of anything to reduce cueball deflection. That was the point of my post. Not to debate about construction, shaft end mass, etc. I was just trying to offer him some actual practical help.
Click to expand...

All good up until your last paragraph. Here is where your logic breaks down. If you want to learn something, imagine this: Suppose you have two identical shafts, same material, taper, diameter, etc. The ONLY difference is one has a 1" ferrule made of wood like OB's, the other has Ivory. Now, chop off the last 6 inches of both shafts at the tip end. Weigh those two pieces. What do you *think* will be the difference? I think most everyone recognizes that the ivory ferruled shaft section will be heavier. How much heavier? Say a typical shaft is 4 oz, and 29 inches. To keep it really simple, lets say that the 6" piece of the shaft is about 20% of the weight, or 0.83 oz. This is 23.45 grams. This means if the difference in mass is only 2.35 *grams*, then you have a 10 percent reduction in end mass. How much do you think a ferrule weighs?

Seriously, you are wrong. Very wrong. There are few things more interesting to me than watching someone who is wrong, but believes they are right, trying to argue their point, rather than learn something.

Your "help", being very misinformed, is actually offering no help, except in so much as it elicited feedback from others who corrected and clarified the info.

KMRUNOUT
 
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