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09-11-2019, 06:18 AM

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Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
Okay, I understand your comments now and thanks for not including us in the backbiting part of your comment. When guys like Bob or Pat, or anyone here asks me a question. I try to answer it as directly as possible. It usually only takes me a few sentences at the most to answer and if I don't know the answer, I'll say that as well. There are a lot of things that we don't know the answers to and it's better to simply say, I'm not sure or I really don't know, than to go on and on and on. People can tell when a poster is uncertain, and no amount of words will cover that up. In fact, the more the uncertain person writes, the worse it is for them.

Thanks for keeping your peepers out for mine as well. I'll keep trying to do my best in answering questions.
Concision is important, but does not always prove truth or help a pool student.

For example, I've taken your refusal to answer my questions as your concise verification that you remain angry and pour anger on me and other instructors--not sure why . . .


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09-11-2019, 07:15 AM

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Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
The video cuts away from the shot then comes back, there is low left on the cue ball. You may be right (I may be crazy, but it just may be a lunatic you're looking for).
Yes, correct. The cue travels straight through the cb. (....Turn out the light....Don't try to save me....)

Great song by the way.


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09-11-2019, 12:04 PM

I just realized that with all the hoopla going on I've actually not conveyed my thoughts on swooping. Not all at once anyway. A bit here and a bit there in different posts. The original post wasn't even about swooping and it's possible that evergruven never even heard the term until this thread.
The swooping possibility was first brought up by Fran. She's since changed her mind due to the post by BC21 post#293 who accurately described what was happening in that shot on the video.
I knew it wasn't a swoop stroke, not because I'm smarter or more observant, but simply because I happen to know that Jose (in spite of being Filipino) doesn't employ that stroke.
Getting back to swooping....or swiping as some oldtimers I know would say. JMO but I don't think the topic comes up much amongst younger players. It was much more prevalent 30+ years ago.
I started doing it 50 or more years ago and I don't remember very well but I'm pretty sure no one ever told me about it. I probably picked it up the same way I got most everything back then, by studying the better players. (check out this excellent video by Blackjack on how things were back then) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zofi...5w4RR&index=22
I still do it occasionally on certain shots, usually just instinctively and after the shot very often wish I hadn't. Reason being cuz maybe I missed the shot or miscued.
It's not that it's an ineffective stroke but it is one that requires a good deal of touch/muscle memory and at this point in time I don't play enough to maintain the feel necessary to execute it reliably. As said previously I wouldn't recommend it to a newer player as the added movement definitely would not be conducive to them developing a straight stroke which IMO is the single most important thing to develop if you wish to play this game well.
When I was doing it back in the day I only did it when cutting an OB to the left and applying right hand english. I executed it by twisting my wrist, rotating my knuckles towards my body (I'm right handed). This is a very natural movement to me whereas rotating out away from my body seems unnatural. So for right cuts I did it differently. On the final backstroke I'd go on a slight angle away from my body and then come stright forward at the left side of the CB. Same end result.
And regardless of direction I never really aimed center ball, I always shaded slightly towards the intended english side but then struck the CB much further out on the edge. That's how I did it. I'm sure others may have done something different.
I guess the point is that we all, particularly older players, have certain techniques we use to accomplish things. Good or bad, right or wrong, we had to learn whatever way we could and most of the time it took a lot of trial and error before we figured it out.
As Blackjack says in the video, there was no internet, no Youtube. God, I would have killed my best friend to get access to Dr Daves website.
I remember watching a video a while back where George Fels was commentating and brought up Boston Shorty. He said a few things about him and one was that he gave lessons. I knew right then that George never actually knew Larry because if he had he would have known he wouldn't give his mother a lesson. Even if she paid him.
You played him for money, and lost. That was your lesson. If you wanted a second lesson then you had to raise the bet.
The young players today are able to progress much quicker. Somewhat because of better equipment but moreso due to easy access to correct information.
Well, as usual I'm off topic. Seeing as how this is an instructors forum (which I'm not) I'd assume a lot of people come on here looking for how to get better. If so, check out another of Blackjacks gems on what's important towards that end. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8Dk...&index=3&t=19s Possibly the best of his many superb videos.
  
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09-11-2019, 02:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkle84 View Post
I just realized that with all the hoopla going on I've actually not conveyed my thoughts on swooping. Not all at once anyway. A bit here and a bit there in different posts. The original post wasn't even about swooping and it's possible that evergruven never even heard the term until this thread.
The swooping possibility was first brought up by Fran. She's since changed her mind due to the post by BC21 post#293 who accurately described what was happening in that shot on the video.
I knew it wasn't a swoop stroke, not because I'm smarter or more observant, but simply because I happen to know that Jose (in spite of being Filipino) doesn't employ that stroke.
Getting back to swooping....or swiping as some oldtimers I know would say. JMO but I don't think the topic comes up much amongst younger players. It was much more prevalent 30+ years ago.
I started doing it 50 or more years ago and I don't remember very well but I'm pretty sure no one ever told me about it. I probably picked it up the same way I got most everything back then, by studying the better players. (check out this excellent video by Blackjack on how things were back then) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zofi...5w4RR&index=22
I still do it occasionally on certain shots, usually just instinctively and after the shot very often wish I hadn't. Reason being cuz maybe I missed the shot or miscued.
It's not that it's an ineffective stroke but it is one that requires a good deal of touch/muscle memory and at this point in time I don't play enough to maintain the feel necessary to execute it reliably. As said previously I wouldn't recommend it to a newer player as the added movement definitely would not be conducive to them developing a straight stroke which IMO is the single most important thing to develop if you wish to play this game well.
When I was doing it back in the day I only did it when cutting an OB to the left and applying right hand english. I executed it by twisting my wrist, rotating my knuckles towards my body (I'm right handed). This is a very natural movement to me whereas rotating out away from my body seems unnatural. So for right cuts I did it differently. On the final backstroke I'd go on a slight angle away from my body and then come stright forward at the left side of the CB. Same end result.
And regardless of direction I never really aimed center ball, I always shaded slightly towards the intended english side but then struck the CB much further out on the edge. That's how I did it. I'm sure others may have done something different.
I guess the point is that we all, particularly older players, have certain techniques we use to accomplish things. Good or bad, right or wrong, we had to learn whatever way we could and most of the time it took a lot of trial and error before we figured it out.
As Blackjack says in the video, there was no internet, no Youtube. God, I would have killed my best friend to get access to Dr Daves website.
I remember watching a video a while back where George Fels was commentating and brought up Boston Shorty. He said a few things about him and one was that he gave lessons. I knew right then that George never actually knew Larry because if he had he would have known he wouldn't give his mother a lesson. Even if she paid him.
You played him for money, and lost. That was your lesson. If you wanted a second lesson then you had to raise the bet.
The young players today are able to progress much quicker. Somewhat because of better equipment but moreso due to easy access to correct information.
Well, as usual I'm off topic. Seeing as how this is an instructors forum (which I'm not) I'd assume a lot of people come on here looking for how to get better. If so, check out another of Blackjacks gems on what's important towards that end. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8Dk...&index=3&t=19s Possibly the best of his many superb videos.
The knuckle move explanation is helpful! Wrist pronation and supination are impossible anatomically except from the elbow, so a knuckle shift/twist would lead to problems.

The wrist move I demonstrate in the video on this thread is simple to learn, and newer players can start with a dash of english, a tiny amount, the sensation should be like trying to hit center cue ball with the left or right edge of the tip.


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09-11-2019, 07:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkle84 View Post
I just realized that with all the hoopla going on I've actually not conveyed my thoughts on swooping. Not all at once anyway. A bit here and a bit there in different posts. The original post wasn't even about swooping and it's possible that evergruven never even heard the term until this thread.
The swooping possibility was first brought up by Fran. She's since changed her mind due to the post by BC21 post#293 who accurately described what was happening in that shot on the video.
I knew it wasn't a swoop stroke, not because I'm smarter or more observant, but simply because I happen to know that Jose (in spite of being Filipino) doesn't employ that stroke.
Getting back to swooping....or swiping as some oldtimers I know would say. JMO but I don't think the topic comes up much amongst younger players. It was much more prevalent 30+ years ago.
I started doing it 50 or more years ago and I don't remember very well but I'm pretty sure no one ever told me about it. I probably picked it up the same way I got most everything back then, by studying the better players. (check out this excellent video by Blackjack on how things were back then) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zofi...5w4RR&index=22
I still do it occasionally on certain shots, usually just instinctively and after the shot very often wish I hadn't. Reason being cuz maybe I missed the shot or miscued.
It's not that it's an ineffective stroke but it is one that requires a good deal of touch/muscle memory and at this point in time I don't play enough to maintain the feel necessary to execute it reliably. As said previously I wouldn't recommend it to a newer player as the added movement definitely would not be conducive to them developing a straight stroke which IMO is the single most important thing to develop if you wish to play this game well.
When I was doing it back in the day I only did it when cutting an OB to the left and applying right hand english. I executed it by twisting my wrist, rotating my knuckles towards my body (I'm right handed). This is a very natural movement to me whereas rotating out away from my body seems unnatural. So for right cuts I did it differently. On the final backstroke I'd go on a slight angle away from my body and then come stright forward at the left side of the CB. Same end result.
And regardless of direction I never really aimed center ball, I always shaded slightly towards the intended english side but then struck the CB much further out on the edge. That's how I did it. I'm sure others may have done something different.
I guess the point is that we all, particularly older players, have certain techniques we use to accomplish things. Good or bad, right or wrong, we had to learn whatever way we could and most of the time it took a lot of trial and error before we figured it out.
As Blackjack says in the video, there was no internet, no Youtube. God, I would have killed my best friend to get access to Dr Daves website.
I remember watching a video a while back where George Fels was commentating and brought up Boston Shorty. He said a few things about him and one was that he gave lessons. I knew right then that George never actually knew Larry because if he had he would have known he wouldn't give his mother a lesson. Even if she paid him.
You played him for money, and lost. That was your lesson. If you wanted a second lesson then you had to raise the bet.
The young players today are able to progress much quicker. Somewhat because of better equipment but moreso due to easy access to correct information.
Well, as usual I'm off topic. Seeing as how this is an instructors forum (which I'm not) I'd assume a lot of people come on here looking for how to get better. If so, check out another of Blackjacks gems on what's important towards that end. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8Dk...&index=3&t=19s Possibly the best of his many superb videos.
I can't remember --- it was so long ago --- did I write that I thought Jose was swoop stroking? I do remember discussing the swoop stroke, being someone who was taught the stroke back in the 80's when 9 ball started to become more popular on the east coast than 14.1.

I'm just not sure what I changed my mind about. I thought I was being pretty consistent.
  
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09-12-2019, 02:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkle84 View Post
I just realized that with all the hoopla going on I've actually not conveyed my thoughts on swooping. Not all at once anyway. A bit here and a bit there in different posts. The original post wasn't even about swooping and it's possible that evergruven never even heard the term until this thread.
The swooping possibility was first brought up by Fran. She's since changed her mind due to the post by BC21 post#293 who accurately described what was happening in that shot on the video.
I knew it wasn't a swoop stroke, not because I'm smarter or more observant, but simply because I happen to know that Jose (in spite of being Filipino) doesn't employ that stroke.
Getting back to swooping....or swiping as some oldtimers I know would say. JMO but I don't think the topic comes up much amongst younger players. It was much more prevalent 30+ years ago.
I started doing it 50 or more years ago and I don't remember very well but I'm pretty sure no one ever told me about it. I probably picked it up the same way I got most everything back then, by studying the better players. (check out this excellent video by Blackjack on how things were back then) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zofi...5w4RR&index=22
I still do it occasionally on certain shots, usually just instinctively and after the shot very often wish I hadn't. Reason being cuz maybe I missed the shot or miscued.
It's not that it's an ineffective stroke but it is one that requires a good deal of touch/muscle memory and at this point in time I don't play enough to maintain the feel necessary to execute it reliably. As said previously I wouldn't recommend it to a newer player as the added movement definitely would not be conducive to them developing a straight stroke which IMO is the single most important thing to develop if you wish to play this game well.
When I was doing it back in the day I only did it when cutting an OB to the left and applying right hand english. I executed it by twisting my wrist, rotating my knuckles towards my body (I'm right handed). This is a very natural movement to me whereas rotating out away from my body seems unnatural. So for right cuts I did it differently. On the final backstroke I'd go on a slight angle away from my body and then come stright forward at the left side of the CB. Same end result.
And regardless of direction I never really aimed center ball, I always shaded slightly towards the intended english side but then struck the CB much further out on the edge. That's how I did it. I'm sure others may have done something different.
I guess the point is that we all, particularly older players, have certain techniques we use to accomplish things. Good or bad, right or wrong, we had to learn whatever way we could and most of the time it took a lot of trial and error before we figured it out.
As Blackjack says in the video, there was no internet, no Youtube. God, I would have killed my best friend to get access to Dr Daves website.
I remember watching a video a while back where George Fels was commentating and brought up Boston Shorty. He said a few things about him and one was that he gave lessons. I knew right then that George never actually knew Larry because if he had he would have known he wouldn't give his mother a lesson. Even if she paid him.
You played him for money, and lost. That was your lesson. If you wanted a second lesson then you had to raise the bet.
The young players today are able to progress much quicker. Somewhat because of better equipment but moreso due to easy access to correct information.
Well, as usual I'm off topic. Seeing as how this is an instructors forum (which I'm not) I'd assume a lot of people come on here looking for how to get better. If so, check out another of Blackjacks gems on what's important towards that end. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8Dk...&index=3&t=19s Possibly the best of his many superb videos.
I had to look at what I originally posted, I guess because so much has happened since then..
sparkle, you nailed it to start. I went back to the vid to try and see it more closely, and
jose appeared to put a tip of left-low from center on the cue ball, aka outside english.
did he initially aim it low-center, like you see efren do? kind of looks like it, but not sure
stroke-wise, I'm not sure about the swooping and whatnot, but he looks to have adjust the grip on his cue butt mid-stroke, a la slip? doesn't seem super uncommon, but I noticed it
anyway, with updated vision and of course, the commentary in this thread, my eyes have been widened as to what's happening

ps I really like the vid on "precision"- thanks for sharing all.


peace & love
  
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09-12-2019, 02:56 PM

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Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
I can't remember --- it was so long ago --- did I write that I thought Jose was swoop stroking? I do remember discussing the swoop stroke, being someone who was taught the stroke back in the 80's when 9 ball started to become more popular on the east coast than 14.1.

I'm just not sure what I changed my mind about. I thought I was being pretty consistent.
Yeah, it's been awhile hasn't it. Just looked back and it was actually Patrick who first mentioned it way back in post 7. In post 10 you said you were of the swooping generation but neither of you ever said you thought Jose swooped on that shot.
My mistake.
  
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09-12-2019, 03:27 PM

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Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
I had to look at what I originally posted, I guess because so much has happened since then..
sparkle, you nailed it to start. I went back to the vid to try and see it more closely, and
jose appeared to put a tip of left-low from center on the cue ball, aka outside english.
did he initially aim it low-center, like you see efren do? kind of looks like it, but not sure
stroke-wise, I'm not sure about the swooping and whatnot, but he looks to have adjust the grip on his cue butt mid-stroke, a la slip? doesn't seem super uncommon, but I noticed it
anyway, with updated vision and of course, the commentary in this thread, my eyes have been widened as to what's happening

ps I really like the vid on "precision"- thanks for sharing all.
I think BC21 gave the best explanation (camera angle) of what shows on the video.
Very difficult on most videos to tell exactly where they're aiming or striking the CB.
Just pay attention to CB action and direction to determine contact point.
Next time you're in the poolroom take a real careful look at a bunch of players while keeping precision/attention to detail in mind.
You'll see very quickly how true his statements are.
  
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09-12-2019, 03:54 PM

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Originally Posted by sparkle84 View Post
Yeah, it's been awhile hasn't it. Just looked back and it was actually Patrick who first mentioned it way back in post 7. In post 10 you said you were of the swooping generation but neither of you ever said you thought Jose swooped on that shot.
My mistake.
Thanks for clearing that up. Oh, and I knew Boston Shorty a bit too. I'm pretty sure George knew him, but maybe not well and maybe he confused him with someone else about the lessons. The thing I remember most about Shorty was that the party was always in HIS room, and everybody went.
  
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09-12-2019, 06:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkle84 View Post
I think BC21 gave the best explanation (camera angle) of what shows on the video.
Very difficult on most videos to tell exactly where they're aiming or striking the CB.
Just pay attention to CB action and direction to determine contact point.
Next time you're in the poolroom take a real careful look at a bunch of players while keeping precision/attention to detail in mind.
You'll see very quickly how true his statements are.
agree that jose appeared to stroke straight through the cue ball
I never thought, nor honestly cared otherwise
while the discussion since then has been intriguing,
it was the contact point I was originally interested in, and mistaken about
the video was difficult to break down but today I looked more carefully at the video
frame-by-frame, and I already posted what I saw
nothing special, I don't think
but again, I may be mistaken


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