Disappointing Sportsmanship or Not?

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Our weekly 9-ball tournament. One of our top regulars - an A player, is playing a C player, with the spot of 2 games on the wire in a race to 5 for the C player. This round is about half way through the tournament, with plenty of players and spectators still here and watching. Score is tied 3-3. The C player has ball-in-hand on the 6-ball, but clearly sets the cue ball down and lines it up to play the 7-ball.

Everybody in the room including myself who is playing in a match 3 tables away, sees what's going on, but as is appropriate, no one says anything to tip off the shooter he's getting ready to play the wrong ball. His opponent is the only one who has that option of warning the player of the mistake he's about to make and also clearly sees what's going on, but says nothing.

As soon as the player shoots and pockets the 7-ball, of course his opponent immediately tells him he just shot at the wrong ball, and of course also tells him he thought he was just checking out where he wanted to leave the cue ball for the 7-ball shot and didn't realize he was going to shoot it until it was too late, which was clearly not the case, in my opinion.

The A player went on to win the match. I didn't say anything, but it just didn't sit well with me that this player, whom I generally have respected as a nice guy and and always shows proper etiquette towards his opponent, had the opportunity to do the right thing here, but he placed the importance of his winning the match over showing good sportsmanship and chose to remain silent and then calling the foul. Karma caught up with him as he lost his next match anyway.

Opinions as to what others would have done in this same situation, keeping in mind that yes, prize $ was involved but not that much - this is just a weekly tournament and your opponent is a far weaker and far less experienced player?
 
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Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
This is a very debated topic and has come up a number of times on this forum. The answer is clear:

Legally the seated player has no obligation to point out which the correct ball is to shoot. He acts as the 'referee' and you don't see a referee in a tournament match warning a player something he is about to do is stupid.

Ethically the debate is quite split. Some people argue it is 'good sportsmanship' to point out an opponents mistake. I feel it is not, as where do you draw the line? Do you have to warn them about a scratch? That they are aiming a kick long? I firmly believe it is the player's responsibility to play their game correctly in ALL cases. And, using professional pool as an example, I have NEVER seen a pro player assist their opponent under any circumstance.

Now, as I said, some people debate this piece and consider it poor sportsmanship to allow your opponent to make their mistake, but whether we agree on that the rules are clear. There is certainly no legal obligation to help your opponent.
 

Texas Carom Club

9ball did to billiards what hiphop did to america
Silver Member
i would have done the same thing, its not my job to help you
its my job to win, its competition in tournaments,
 

PoolBum

Ace in the side.
Silver Member
Ethically the debate is quite split. Some people argue it is 'good sportsmanship' to point out an opponents mistake. I feel it is not, as where do you draw the line? Do you have to warn them about a scratch? That they are aiming a kick long? I firmly believe it is the player's responsibility to play their game correctly in ALL cases.

I think most everyone would agree with you that, first and foremost, it is the responsibility of the player who is at the table to make sure they know which ball to shoot.

But, ethically speaking, let me point out a difference between the types of cases you mention, that might make the difference as to why some people think that you should point out to your opponent when they are about to shoot the wrong ball, but not the other cases.

Shooting the wrong ball is simply a factual mistake. It involves no mistake in judging how to execute a shot, like knowing that you might scratch, or knowing how to kick at a ball successfully. It also does not involve a mistake in strategy, like whether to play a safe or go for pocketing a ball on a given shot. Those mistakes test your skill at the game, whereas not realizing that the 6 ball is on the table doesn't.

You may still argue that it is ethically permissible to let your opponent make a simple factual mistake, but I think that some people may see an ethically relevant difference between the two types of case. So, they might argue, you draw the line between factual mistakes, and mistakes in judgment that reflect a person's skill at the game.
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
class

It isn't poor sportsmanship, more a lack of class. Does an A player really need a C player to make a mental error to win? They will make enough pool mistakes that an A player should be able to find a way to win.

An edit: I have to admit if the C player is a jerk I will cheerfully sit there and let him crap in his nest!

Hu
 

Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
competitive vs social

I think most everyone would agree with you that, first and foremost, it is the responsibility of the player who is at the table to make sure they know which ball to shoot.

But, ethically speaking, let me point out a difference between the types of cases you mention, that might make the difference as to why some people think that you should point out to your opponent when they are about to shoot the wrong ball, but not the other cases.

Shooting the wrong ball is simply a factual mistake. It involves no mistake in judging how to execute a shot, like knowing that you might scratch, or knowing how to kick at a ball successfully. It also does not involve a mistake in strategy, like whether to play a safe or go for pocketing a ball on a given shot. Those mistakes test your skill at the game, whereas not realizing that the 6 ball is on the table doesn't.

You may still argue that it is ethically permissible to let your opponent make a simple factual mistake, but I think that some people may see an ethically relevant difference between the two types of case. So, they might argue, you draw the line between factual mistakes, and mistakes in judgment that reflect a person's skill at the game.

I like this distinction and haven't considered this before. Thank you.

As I reflect, I think there is another distinction. Is this a social game or a competitive game. My theory is that etiquette might change depending on the venue.

-On the casual end is playing a friend on a home table, or warming up with your team getting ready for a league match.

-In the middle would be playing cheap sets with a regular sparring partner or playing a league match with your team counting on you to score.

-On the serious end would be a professional tournament or a big money match in which there is big action from a number of people involved.

Maybe if you're playing in a casual environment it seems a bit antagonistic to not remind a player which ball to shoot, like you're playing too 'cut throat' for that setting. On the other hand, as I mentioned, I've never seen a pro player point out something like this in a tournament, nor can I imagine someone in a big money match doing this when there are people from all over the country betting on the match.

For me, I play almost entirely competitive pool, and when I'm just practicing I'm training for competitive pool. For this reason I always play the way the pros play, and they don't help each other to keep it friendly. Not trying to be a jerk, but where I play you play to win and a match of pool is a battle. I've been judged critically for playing a lock up safety on a weaker player as well.

But, to be fair, I also understand this so I try to make a point not to play in non-competitive environment. I try to sign up for events where we all have the same competitive alignment so this isn't as much of an issue.
 

jeremy8000

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Interesting situation.

I don't think it is bad sportsmanship to let him take the shot - the shooter took on the responsibility of knowing and playing by the rules when they entered into a staked competition. Advising him before he makes that foul is certainly in the spirit of good competition, as it does prevent what can be an outcome-changing occurrence that had nothing to do with either player's actual skill, but I believe that's it.

As a counterpoint, few lessons are learned as well as when learned the hard way. Making that error and suffering the cost will likely cause that player to be very, very unlikely to make it again, more so than had he been stopped short of it.
 

PoolBum

Ace in the side.
Silver Member
I like this distinction and haven't considered this before. Thank you.

As I reflect, I think there is another distinction. Is this a social game or a competitive game. My theory is that etiquette might change depending on the venue.

-On the casual end is playing a friend on a home table, or warming up with your team getting ready for a league match.

-In the middle would be playing cheap sets with a regular sparring partner or playing a league match with your team counting on you to score.

-On the serious end would be a professional tournament or a big money match in which there is big action from a number of people involved.

Maybe if you're playing in a casual environment it seems a bit antagonistic to not remind a player which ball to shoot, like you're playing too 'cut throat' for that setting. On the other hand, as I mentioned, I've never seen a pro player point out something like this in a tournament, nor can I imagine someone in a big money match doing this when there are people from all over the country betting on the match.

For me, I play almost entirely competitive pool, and when I'm just practicing I'm training for competitive pool. For this reason I always play the way the pros play, and they don't help each other to keep it friendly. Not trying to be a jerk, but where I play you play to win and a match of pool is a battle. I've been judged critically for playing a lock up safety on a weaker player as well.

But, to be fair, I also understand this so I try to make a point not to play in non-competitive environment. I try to sign up for events where we all have the same competitive alignment so this isn't as much of an issue.

I can see where playing in the professional arena might be different than playing casually or even cheap sets. At the professional level I wouldn't hold it against anyone who thought their opponent should be entirely responsible for any errors.
 

driven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In a five dollar tournament, at a bowling alley, a guy let me shoot the wrong ball and then jumped up to inform me of my mistake. I think I said something like wtf?

The guy said its not my job or something like that.

whatever, some guys do and others do not.

I think it is a sign of a persons character.

I lost the game but that's ok.
steven
 

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
I think most everyone would agree with you that, first and foremost, it is the responsibility of the player who is at the table to make sure they know which ball to shoot.

But, ethically speaking, let me point out a difference between the types of cases you mention, that might make the difference as to why some people think that you should point out to your opponent when they are about to shoot the wrong ball, but not the other cases.

Shooting the wrong ball is simply a factual mistake. It involves no mistake in judging how to execute a shot, like knowing that you might scratch, or knowing how to kick at a ball successfully. It also does not involve a mistake in strategy, like whether to play a safe or go for pocketing a ball on a given shot. Those mistakes test your skill at the game, whereas not realizing that the 6 ball is on the table doesn't.

You may still argue that it is ethically permissible to let your opponent make a simple factual mistake, but I think that some people may see an ethically relevant difference between the two types of case. So, they might argue, you draw the line between factual mistakes, and mistakes in judgment that reflect a person's skill at the game.

I get your gist, but it's not a "factual error" as much as it's a mental mistake. Mistakes happen. He made his. And the reason I hate this opponent should do this or that, is then when the opponent really didn't see it, he's now a classless jerk because he didn't stop his opponent from shooting the right ball because he decided to take his chair and sip his beer.

Should I tell someone they missed home plate. I mean, there was no play on them, they simply stepped a little too far and missed it. The ball is still in the outfield. Missing stepping on a piece of rubber that is 17 inches wide takes no special skill, no judgement, no strategy. He just was not paying attention. And on appeal, he will be called out. Simple as that.


In a tournament, you better bring your A game, and the mental aptitude to win, because folks should not be there to hold your hand or change your diapers. I assume everyone is a big boy or girl now a days, and they know how to watch their own match and shoot the right balls. If they don't, it might be time to stay out of tourneys until you do. just saying.
 
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DynoDan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In the regular nine ball ring game where I grew up playing, if you were dumb enough to warn an opponent that he was about to shoot the wrong ball, and he then (as a result) proceeded to pocket a money ball, you had to pay instead for all the other players!
For myself, in normal competition, I’m the kind of guy who would warn my opponent that he was about to commit an unintentional foul. BUT, if as the match progressed, I learned my opponent was a ***** who didn’t deserve my respect, and he had me down to my last dime, then.....who knows?
 

jeremy8000

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Pretty sure this is still the case in APA...

In 8-ball, if a player has solids but starts shooting stripes, the foul is only recognized if called by one of the players. The opponent can actually allow the shooter to continue to shoot the wrong balls and then call the foul later - either when they miss, are getting ready to shoot the 8 for the win, etc. By the same token, if the shooter realizes they've shot the wrong ball (stripes in this case, as above), they can proceed to shoot in a solid at which point it becomes too late for the opponent to call the foul.

So much room for abuse of the spirit of the game.
 

Cron

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
driven said it, character exposure.

The part of your story that is bad to me is that the prize wasn't big. That doubles down on the type of character this person has.

But also, the 6-Ball is green, was the felt green or in the pocket on a blue felt? I've shot with several people that are color blind or need glasses, that ball can disappear. I shot with one person who could only see in black and white, rendering the numbers on the ball the _ONLY_ indicator (he really did have to read every ball, seemed horrible for him).
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
In a five dollar tournament, at a bowling alley, a guy let me shoot the wrong ball and then jumped up to inform me of my mistake. I think I said something like wtf?

The guy said its not my job or something like that.

whatever, some guys do and others do not.

I think it is a sign of a persons character.

I lost the game but that's ok.
steven

It’s a two-way street......that sign of character malarkey.
What kind of character does a man have who expects his opponent to help him win?

If a guy told me I was shooting the wrong ball....I’d hand him the cue-ball.
....I’m responsible for my own decisions.
 

Texas Carom Club

9ball did to billiards what hiphop did to america
Silver Member
In a tournament, you better bring your A game, and the mental aptitude to win, because folks should not there to hold your hand or change your diapers. I assume everyone is a big boy or girl now a days, and they know how to watch their own match and shoot the right balls. If they don't, it might be time to stay out of tourneys until you do. just saying.

thank you

but some will always be holier than thou anyways
 

pab

Center ball can do it all
Silver Member
A lot of good points on both sides are being made.

For myself, I was in that situation during a league match a few years ago. I was playing a gentlemen (nice guy, but a couple bricks shy of a load) who was about to shoot at the wrong ball. I stopped him and told him, he stood up and was very flustered at what he just about did.

I simply said, take a walk around the table and get your head back in the game. He did exactly that and wound up winning the match.

For me personally, I won't lie that it sucked to lose, but I have no regrets about doing what I did and would do the same thing again.

Would I consider the OP's situation to be unsportsmanlike? No - and I've been on the flip side of that coin. I shot the wrong ball, my opponent knew and didn't say anything. I certainly didn't begrudge him either.

If memory serves, I lost that match too. God I suck.
 

misterpoole

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
An edit: I have to admit if the C player is a jerk I will cheerfully sit there and let him crap in his nest!

Hu

I agree with this.
Also if they are taking advantage of the rating system and know it they are getting no more help from me.
But otherwise in a local regularly scheduled tournament i would point out their mistake before it happens
So It Depends.
 
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