Simonis 860 versus HR

sgengaro86

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have an Olhausen 9' table with 860. I feel like it is a little slow (humidity isn't a huge issue but I do use a dehumidifier in the summer). Two quick quetsions.1) Does the cloth slowdown over time; and 2) is 860HR a little faster than 860 and slower than 760? I generally play 9 ball and straight pool.
Thanks for any help!
Stephen
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have an Olhausen 9' table with 860. I feel like it is a little slow (humidity isn't a huge issue but I do use a dehumidifier in the summer). Two quick quetsions.1) Does the cloth slowdown over time; and 2) is 860HR a little faster than 860 and slower than 760? I generally play 9 ball and straight pool.
Thanks for any help!
Stephen
HR is a little faster than reg. 860. Great cloth.
 

boogieman

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
HR is more durable for sure. It's more wear resistant and a bit faster than regular 860. I'd go HR if possible, unless you want a different color.

If you do decide to go HR, make sure you or the installer understands that it's requires more "oomph" than regular 860. When you watch the video, it looks like RKC isn't pulling very hard. Realize he has some BRUTE strength from years of doing installs. He could probably crush a cue ball in his hands. 😅 If you attempt to only match his hand and body movements, chances are you will be re-stretching in a few months because you didn't have the same "oomph" that he made look real easy. You have to get a feel for the weave of the cloth and when the video says full stretch, feel the full stretch in the cloth, not just how it looks on the video.

It's entirely DIY do-able but realize by the time you get done with the bed and rails (especially rails), you're going to have some friction burns on your thumbs or at least some sore skin unless you have some major calluses from similar work. I really enjoyed setting up my own table but it's not for everyone, just depends on what makes you tick.
 

rexus31

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
HR is more durable for sure. It's more wear resistant and a bit faster than regular 860. I'd go HR if possible, unless you want a different color.

If you do decide to go HR, make sure you or the installer understands that it's requires more "oomph" than regular 860. When you watch the video, it looks like RKC isn't pulling very hard. Realize he has some BRUTE strength from years of doing installs. He could probably crush a cue ball in his hands. 😅 If you attempt to only match his hand and body movements, chances are you will be re-stretching in a few months because you didn't have the same "oomph" that he made look real easy. You have to get a feel for the weave of the cloth and when the video says full stretch, feel the full stretch in the cloth, not just how it looks on the video.

It's entirely DIY do-able but realize by the time you get done with the bed and rails (especially rails), you're going to have some friction burns on your thumbs or at least some sore skin unless you have some major calluses from similar work. I really enjoyed setting up my own table but it's not for everyone, just depends on what makes you tick.
The cloth needs to be properly indexed (measured from the end) before it is stretched so you achieve the proper tension.
 

boogieman

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
The cloth needs to be properly indexed (measured from the end) before it is stretched so you achieve the proper tension.
Yes, on indexing I'm saying to make sure you get a feel for what full stretch is, if you're like me, what you think was full stretch wasn't quite that. I ended up having to re-stretch later because I had trepidation about stretching too hard.

Trust me, it's doable, but re-stretching down the road, after your pockets are cut, is a much more difficult process!🤕 Upon installation my cloth was perfect, no stretch lines/shadows at all. After re-stretch it has stretch lines because it's very difficult to get an even pull once you have cut outs and have to keep them centered in the pockets. It doesn't effect play ability but it sure looks ugly. My next installation will be stretched right to begin with.

The other thing I would suggest is to stretch the cloth in the most humid part of the year. I did mine in the dead coldest part of winter with no humidity. Summer time rolled around and it loosened up. If stretched in the humid part of the year, a rising humidity isn't an issue, and less humid just means tighter cloth.
 

rexus31

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
But if you index and pull to the indexed mark on the cloth, the stretch is what it is; there is no full stretch or less than full stretch. It's simply the properly indexed stretch.

You have stretch lines because it is stretched too much.
 

boogieman

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
But if you index and pull to the indexed mark on the cloth, the stretch is what it is; there is no full stretch or less than full stretch. It's simply the properly indexed stretch.

You have stretch lines because it is stretched too much.
Yes, but I'm saying if your pockets are cut out and you have to re-stretch you're not going to be able to stretch it the same as you were with virgin cloth. If you have to tweak it, chances are you will get stretch lines. At this point you just have to feel the weave of the cloth while stretching and keep the cutouts where they need to be. Yes, my cloth is overstretched, the stretch shadows/lines are a dead giveaway. If you have to re-stretch with pockets already cut, and keep them in place, you will have stretch lines. Do it right the first time and understand the process, or get a mechanic who does.

Re-read what I wrote. It was dead of winter with no humidity. Summer rolls around and poof, humidity and loose cloth. If you install in winter, you better "gorilla hand" it to get your index or better yet wait until summer to install. I wouldn't recommend this, and it's probably incorrect, but if I were to install 860HR in the winter again, I'd put it in the bathroom draped on a couple chairs on the floor (not inside the shower!) and run the shower on the hottest water for a couple minutes before attempting to determine the stretch index.
 

rexus31

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Did you index your cloth when you installed it or did you do it by feel?

If you stretch to Simonis' specs there is no need to re-stretch. See below from Simonis' website. "Properly Installed" means stretched to the correct index.

Screen Shot 2021-09-12 at 9.08.13 AM.png
 

boogieman

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
Did you index your cloth when you installed it or did you do it by feel?

If you stretch to Simonis' specs there is no need to re-stretch. See below from Simonis' website. "Properly Installed" means stretched to the correct index.

View attachment 609505
It was indexed by me as per the official Simonis DVD staring our very own RKC. In the dead of winter with no humidity per the instructions on the DVD with no humidity in the air. Summer happens, humidity happens, the cloth relaxes. This is very simple to understand, let me state it again a bit differently:

If you index 860HR the cloth per the DVD in the dead of winter when there is barely any humidity in the air, the cloth WILL relax when summer hits and there is humidity in the air. If you must install and index in the winter, you better put some gorilla strength to it, more than what you think, or you will be re-stretching once summer rolls around. Find your index and figure it will pull another 1/4-1/2" if it were summer.

Really easy to understand? I'm sure it's covered in some of the cloth installer boot camps, but if you're looking for the info on the DVD, you're out of luck. Stretch it in the summer or you will have loose cloth for half of the year. Believe I'm an idiot if you want, but if you are a first time cloth installer or haven't worked with HR, basing your info off the official Simonis DVD, you better do it during summer time because if you do it in the dead of winter you will be re-streching when summer rolls around and your cloth relaxes.

The DVD says nothing about humidity, but if you ignore humidity and how it effects wool, you will be in for a bad time. Install (and index) cloth per the official DVD in the summer. If you must do it in the winter, give it some additional "oomph" or you will be sorry you didn't when summer rolls around.

I'm really not arguing with you here, know that humidity relaxes the cloth and it's much easier to do with a new rectangular cloth that the pockets haven't been cut and fit once before. Do it in summer, or account for the fact that there is no humidity in the winter.
 

rexus31

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No need to get your feathers ruffled and I never called you an idiot or even implied it. You would think if the cloth changed that much from humidity, Simonis would be aware of this and supply alternate stretch indexes based on relative humidity. I'm questioning it because I've not heard of others (at least on AZB) having to have their cloth re-stretched once it's been installed. Perhaps an actual mechanic can chime in and provide insight.
 

boogieman

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
No need to get your feathers ruffled and I never called you an idiot or even implied it. You would think if the cloth changed that much from humidity, Simonis would be aware of this and supply alternate stretch indexes based on relative humidity. I'm questioning it because I've not heard of others (at least on AZB) having to have their cloth re-stretched once it's been installed. Perhaps an actual mechanic can chime in and provide insight.
Sorry, wasn't trying to get ruffled, not had my morning caffeine yet. Hopefully they can chime in, but it is common knowledge that wool blend cloths relax with humidity. It's the reason we use de-humidifiers in home rooms.
 

Sheldon

dontneednostinkintitle
Silver Member
The only tables I've ever seen re-stretched or needing it, were tables that were not properly set up in the first place.
Humidity can be high here, but I've never seen it cause a properly set up table to be "loose". Dehumidifiers are more to keep your table playing consistently.
 

boogieman

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
The only tables I've ever seen re-stretched or needing it, were tables that were not properly set up in the first place.
Humidity can be high here, but I've never seen it cause a properly set up table to be "loose". Dehumidifiers are more to keep your table playing consistently.
It could be entirely my fault, I didn't mean to imply it wasn't. It was the first time installing. I did index it per the DVD, but it did loosen up considerably once summer hit. The de-humidifier helped, but did not fix the looseness completely. It played great and tight for about 5 months then boom, loose. I have a buddy whose cloth also loosened (installed in winter, loosened when summer hit), no idea who installed it. There is also a bar here with HR on it that loosened up, but that one definitely could be due to the "quality" of our local installers.

I guess what I am trying to say, HR is absolutely wonderful cloth, but make sure it's installed right and the installer knows it is a bit different than regular 860.
 
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