Pros and cons of believing in talent or hard work

mikemosconi · Sep 25, 2020

Specifically for billiards- but also pertaining to other sports- the "natural talent" part usually has to do with one's ability to be hyper focused and physically relaxed AT the point of stroke execution- and to be able to repeat this very , very consistently.

The other part is the visualization in recognizing patterns, creating cue ball routes, applying safeties etc.

Great natural talent in these two areas are requirements to be the best of the best- however, one can, if they recognize the importance of these two factors in the game, train and be trained to elevate their own God given natural abilities to a very high level and be competitive with the very best. For that, you will need drive and determination at as high a level as others' natural abilities- and the time and ability to dedicate to the sport unconditionally.

I believe that it takes more than just hard work or practice to overcome a lack of great natural ability- one has to learn, recognize, or be taught the factors that make great champions in a sport and then target their training in the correct methods and areas of concentration to be successful.

9BallKY · Sep 25, 2020

Here is 3 examples of talent.
There’s a guy who comes in the local pool hall. He practices twice a week, he plays maybe 3 or 4 games max each session, so 8 games a week basically. Even in his late 50s with a lot of health issues he can still play at a 650 Fargo level. He has done this for years. That’s talent not hard work.

Shannon Daulton grew up about 30 miles from me. A guy who used to practice with him when he was in his early teens said you could show Shannon a shot and he could execute it usually on the first try. This guy was mentioned in the unknown monsters thread here on AZ from a few years back. He hasn’t played in 15 years due to a bad back. When he was playing he would have been a 700 Fargo player. He won several regional events himself.

Earl Strickland said in an interview that the first time he ever played pool that he could pocket balls as good or better than people who had been playing for years.

Talent like this and hard work will make you a great player. Hard work alone will only take you so far. I’m 53 have played pool most of my life. I quit playing once for about 8 years and once for about 3. I have no talent no stroke, but I have worked hard on my game. All the hard work I’ve done has only taken me so far. It has only made me the best player I can be. Yes I think I can still get better. However even if I had time to practice 10 hours a day I would never be a world class player That’s called reality.

It takes both talent and hard work to reach the top. Talent without a work ethic will only go so far. Hard work without talent will only take you to a certain level.

straightline · Sep 25, 2020

9BallKY said:
Here is 3 examples of talent.
There’s a guy who comes in the local pool hall. He practices twice a week, he plays maybe 3 or 4 games max each session, so 8 games a week basically. Even in his late 50s with a lot of health issues he can still play at a 650 Fargo level. He has done this for years. That’s talent not hard work.

Shannon Daulton grew up about 30 miles from me. A guy who used to practice with him when he was in his early teens said you could show Shannon a shot and he could execute it usually on the first try. This guy was mentioned in the unknown monsters thread here on AZ from a few years back. He hasn’t played in 15 years due to a bad back. When he was playing he would have been a 700 Fargo player. He won several regional events himself.

Earl Strickland said in an interview that the first time he ever played pool that he could pocket balls as good or better than people who had been playing for years.

Talent like this and hard work will make you a great player. Hard work alone will only take you so far. I’m 53 have played pool most of my life. I quit playing once for about 8 years and once for about 3. I have no talent no stroke, but I have worked hard on my game. All the hard work I’ve done has only taken me so far. It has only made me the best player I can be. Yes I think I can still get better. However even if I had time to practice 10 hours a day I would never be a world class player That’s called reality.

It takes both talent and hard work to reach the top. Talent without a work ethic will only go so far. Hard work without talent will only take you to a certain level.

Whatever talent is, that sounds more like aptitude. And whatever hard work means, it's accomplishing THE work that gets the gains.

alstl · Sep 25, 2020

4:18 of this video.

Video #2

http://vintagevideoirvingcrane.blogspot.com/

Irving Crane does a pretty good job of explaining what it takes.

BlueRaider · Sep 25, 2020

9BallKY said:
Here is 3 examples of talent.
There’s a guy who comes in the local pool hall. He practices twice a week, he plays maybe 3 or 4 games max each session, so 8 games a week basically. Even in his late 50s with a lot of health issues he can still play at a 650 Fargo level. He has done this for years. That’s talent not hard work.

Shannon Daulton grew up about 30 miles from me. A guy who used to practice with him when he was in his early teens said you could show Shannon a shot and he could execute it usually on the first try. This guy was mentioned in the unknown monsters thread here on AZ from a few years back. He hasn’t played in 15 years due to a bad back. When he was playing he would have been a 700 Fargo player. He won several regional events himself.

Earl Strickland said in an interview that the first time he ever played pool that he could pocket balls as good or better than people who had been playing for years.

Talent like this and hard work will make you a great player. Hard work alone will only take you so far. I’m 53 have played pool most of my life. I quit playing once for about 8 years and once for about 3. I have no talent no stroke, but I have worked hard on my game. All the hard work I’ve done has only taken me so far. It has only made me the best player I can be. Yes I think I can still get better. However even if I had time to practice 10 hours a day I would never be a world class player That’s called reality.

It takes both talent and hard work to reach the top. Talent without a work ethic will only go so far. Hard work without talent will only take you to a certain level.

How long has the first guy been playing? How many hours has he put into the game? How do you know he didn't previously play at 700 speed and is just "maintaining" a diminished skill level from his peak? How do you know his 650 Fargo Rate isn't the result of decades of hard work?

Same thing with Daulton. Did he already have 10,000+ hours in pool by the time he was in his teens? 5 hours a day over 5 years gets you close to that. I doubt he could execute difficult shots on command in his first 6 months to 1 year of playing pool.

And yes, I'm sure Earl is telling the truth. According to him, he's one of the greatest athletes to ever live. Not just pool players. But athletes. Makes Usain Bolt and Michael Phelps look like little old grannies with their clumsy coordination and awkward body control in comparison to him.

Tin Man · Sep 25, 2020

thoughts

So a number of people continue to explain that talent exists, limits exist, it's the difference between good and great, this guy could shoot the eyes off the ball, etc, etc, etc. But all of you have been distracted into debating the reality of talent. My question was: How does believing in talent help you?

I realize now why I am so fired up about this. This isn't just about talent. This is about your thinking. There are different ways to sort thoughts and beliefs. You can sort them out into categories of TRUE and FALSE. Or you can sort them out into USEFUL and DESTRUCTIVE. I don't care what's true. I am not interested in making an argument that will make a crowd turn their heads and admire my eloquence. I am not interested in going to war with facts and anecdotes. You know what I am interested in? Playing some good pool.

Let me put it this way. Suppose you're down shooting the 9 ball. Hill-hill, game ball. Got it? OK, good. Now, what are you thinking about? Probably not much, like 'don't forget to take a deep breath', or just quietly remembering times you've made a similar shot before. OK. Great. Suddenly you think to yourself "If I miss this ball it would be devastating!" Time out! Hold it right there! Let me ask the question: Is this true?

Well, yes, if you miss that ball it would be devastating. That is true. Or maybe not. You could debate this. Maybe it would be a good long term thing for your growth. Maybe it's not so bad. But if you start going down this line of thought exploration in your mind while you are shooting it's not going to lead to best results. Get it? It's not true or false, it's useful and destructive. If you are a skydiver and falling to the ground, is a trampoline true or false? Doesn't matter! You need a parachute!

So I understand I'm not actually shooting a 9 ball right now. The difference is when you are at the table almost any thoughts are distracting. But while talking about our general attitudes and beliefs towards pool, I do think they matter a lot. They can benefit us. They can interfere with our journey. In many ways. Would you rather be right? Or would you rather be successful?

Now bbb and brian gave reasonable discussions about these things, and I don't consider their outlooks totally cancerous. Of course we're not all equal. BBB, champions do have 'it' but were they born with 'it' or did they earn 'it'? Do we all have limits? I mean, we need eye sight to see the balls. But see, this paragraph is a red herring. I'm not interested in this debate. I'm interested in one thing. Where is our focus best served? What beliefs best help us achieve our end?

I'm not the least bit interested in debating where my limits are. As far as I'm concerned they don't exist. I am not going to deny that there are things outside of my control. I could put in hard work and get hit by a bus tomorrow on the way to the poolroom and my hard work wouldn't save me. OK. Hmm. What to do? I'll tell you. I am going to minimize in my mind anything outside of my control to the point of irrelevant. And I am going to inflate in my mind the value of those things I can control: my attitudes, beliefs, thoughts, behaviors, and my focus on my goals. I'm going to get more and more laser focused until thoughts that aren't useful in accomplishing my mission fade to white noise in the background, and beliefs that are useful take up my entire field of vision. My flashlight of consciousnesses is shining only on things I can control and I tend that garden. Time to go to work today because that is all that matters to me.

bbb · Sep 25, 2020

Tin man
The champions put in the work
To answer your question
Believing in talent is destructive non productive

Geosnooker · Sep 25, 2020

Hockey is a good sport to look at.

Being a natural athlete just isn’t good enough. There was that funny Bo Jackson commercial a few decades ago. ‘Bo knows’ football, baseball, basketball. Then they show guys playing hockey and Bo shakes his head. Success In some sports take much more than natural talent.

Anyways, many have talent without motivation. I was a decent billiards player in my teens but no desire to pursue it professionally. I wanted to be a geologist. Looking back, l may have become ranked 50 or so in Snooker, maybe win one ranked tournament over a decade but ‘meh...so what?’ No desire to practice 4 hours a day. I’d rather have fun playing an hour Hitting balls around.

I find this forum amusing at time’s. I have fun playing pool. I play in 3 unaffiliated leagues and we enjoy playing. Some posters don’t seem to be enjoying pool but approaching as work with some greater end point. ‘Don’t just bang balls around on the table or...’. Or what exactly? I have fun. I’m not dedicating hours to someday being ranked 50th in a sport that 99% of the public couldn’t name a the top ranked pro .

If I had the talent in football. I might dedicate myself so I could sign a 50 million dollar contract with Manchester United. Pool? Work hard so I earn $500 and get a free room and meals. A lot of young people with talent in billiards have decided to do other things in life.

The_JV · Sep 25, 2020

bbb said:
Believing in talent is destructive non productive

I believe in talent, and as I said before I don't believe I have much of it. This hasn't prevented me from trying to improve and believing that my limits are still dynamic to my efforts.

Maybe it's better said that if you believe you can only improve as far as your natural talent will take you it's destructive / non-productive...?

bbb · Sep 25, 2020

The_JV said:
I believe in talent, and as I said before I don't believe I have much of it. This hasn't prevented me from trying to improve and believing that my limits are still dynamic to my efforts.

.....Maybe it's better said that if you believe you can only improve as far as your natural talent will take you it's destructive / non-productive...?

Your last sentence is spot on and I think what tin man is saying

9BallKY · Sep 25, 2020

BlueRaider said:
How long has the first guy been playing? How many hours has he put into the game? How do you know he didn't previously play at 700 speed and is just "maintaining" a diminished skill level from his peak? How do you know his 650 Fargo Rate isn't the result of decades of hard work?

Same thing with Daulton. Did he already have 10,000+ hours in pool by the time he was in his teens? 5 hours a day over 5 years gets you close to that. I doubt he could execute difficult shots on command in his first 6 months to 1 year of playing pool.

And yes, I'm sure Earl is telling the truth. According to him, he's one of the greatest athletes to ever live. Not just pool players. But athletes. Makes Usain Bolt and Michael Phelps look like little old grannies with their clumsy coordination and awkward body control in comparison to him.

I’ve known the first guy since I was a teenager. I’ve played him, I’ve traveled with him, even worked with him when we were in our 20s. I know how much he practiced. He probably did play close to 700 speed when he was younger and healthy. How much better could he have been if he had worked at it?

Also I know that Shannon and Earl both put a lot of hard work into their game to get to the top. Everyone who reaches their level has to work at it.

I can play very close to 700 speed myself but it took years to get there. I’ve put in tons of hours on my game and still do but I’ll never reach their level.

9BallKY · Sep 25, 2020

Tinman I agree that believing in ourselves is a great motivator. You have to believe than you can accomplish something or you will give up when things get tough. I’ve always believed I could get better and I still see room for improvement in my game. I’m always working to get better.

The last tournament I played in (back before COVID-19) I was hill hill with the player who finished 2nd in the state 9 ball tournament a month before. He was breaking. He made a ball on the break and the balls rolled out perfect. I told myself I just need him to make a mistake and give me one opportunity. I believed that if I got one chance I could win the set no matter what the position of the balls were when I got to the table. He did make a mistake and I did get an opportunity but I ultimately lost the set. Was it devastating? No I was glad that I got the chance. The cue ball was frozen on the rail length of the table slight cut on the 6 going away from the 7. Made the 6 took what position I could on the 7. Hung the 7 up. The guy went on to win the tournament double dipping a 720 player in the finals. I was disappointed of course but I still got 3rd. I still believe I can win against the guy the next time we meet

Bavafongoul · Sep 25, 2020

You do not need any talent, skills or abilities whatsoever to try hard.
Derek Jeter once remarked that a player doesn’t need any talent to try hard.

Now those blessed with natural talents can conform them for any endeavor they undertake.
Those not so fortunate only have one option. To try harder to be better than those more talented .

The effort you invest to get better is proportionate to your raw skills, ability to learn and apply knowledge.
IMO, most players are either naive or unrealistic about their expectations & usually compare themselves with other players.

The problem is they are seldom objective and using contrast comparisons is pretty meaningless because it is a flawed process.
Instead, align your expectations at the outset of your journey to becomIng a better pool player. Along the way, you can adjust it.

I went to a local top golf instructor 25 years ago for some help before the annual NCGA Qualifier. The first thing he asked was
what is your index and what do you want to play to? I was a 14.4 at that time & my reply was at least under 5. He asked me what
I did for a living, asked about my family and activities and how much did I now practice my golf game.

After answering & discussing my golf expectations, he didn’t think he would be able to get me to where I wanted to play at.
I asked why? He answered because you really don’t have enough time to practice & play to develop & sharpen your game.

I hit some balls & after a small bucket, he said I can lower 4-5 strokes off your game but I can’t get you to play to a 4-5.
So we discussed this in more detail and what he said was there are some flaws in my swing when I go too hard and
emphasized strokes on the green was every player’s biggest adversary and so play smarter with my club selection.

I did not advance that year in the local NCGA qualifier. It was a distant new golf course and it ate my shorts.
But by year end, my index was down to a 8.9 and I was thrilled that I could legitimately claim a single digit handicap.
Unfortunately, life’s activities kept getting in the way and it was the only time I actually achieved a single digit handicap.

Back to the question,......hard work or talent........I vote talent over hard work.
Why? Because hard work can only take you so far and anyone can put in the effort.
Derek Jeter already told us it doesn’t require talent to simply try hard and he sure did.

But talent, that’s something you are gifted with & talent only improves with hard work. Talent makes up for your shortcomings
but without hard work, well talent by itself diminishes & lesser skilled but more dedicated pool players can & will take you down.

Matt_24 · Sep 25, 2020

Once you accept that there are LIMITS to ability - despite the hard work - and get your pride out of the way -- you can take a realistic look at your game, and your potential for success -- and really learn how to match up in an intelligent manner and do well.

The cream will always rise to the top. If you weren't already a champion by your 20s, well...I would say accept it, and move on, while still enjoying the game we all love.

book collector · Sep 25, 2020

I can tell you in the work world , hard work usually just gets you more work and your supervisor gets the credit.
Things like being the bosses side action, being the bosses boot licker ,informant, henchman. All lead up the ladder faster than hard work and ability.
If anything, a supervisor is threatened by hard work and talent and will usually try to keep them off the managements radar, for fear they will take their job.

Matt_24 · Sep 25, 2020

book collector said:
I can tell you in the work world , hard work usually just gets you more work and your supervisor gets the credit.
Things like being the bosses side action, being the bosses boot licker ,informant, henchman. All lead up the ladder faster than hard work and ability.
If anything, a supervisor is threatened by hard work and talent and will usually try to keep them off the managements radar, for fear they will take their job.

This can be very true. I recommend the book, "THE 48 LAWS OF POWER" to develop strategies when encountering situations such as these.

The best strategy is to work hard AND through that hard work make both yourself and your boss look good. I found that when doing that. When communicating to them how your accomplishments reflect on the entire team that THEY lead and inspired, well this falls in line with their natural self-interest (hey, we are all human)… and then everyone can eat well. Life is chess, not checkers.

Bob Jewett · Sep 25, 2020

What are the pros and cons of believing that people are different?

When I was in middle school, a friend of mine was a natural. Where most kids would be struggling to get a hit at soft ball, he would keep fouling it off until he saw a pitch he liked. The coach finally said, "Stop that, Dick." An hour of sit-ups? Not a problem. When a mutual friend got a pool table Dick beat us like rented mules, until....

He had no interest in the game. I did. Sometimes ten-hour days on the pool tables at the rec center with the better players. Sometimes all-night sessions of six-ball on that fold-up Sears table with the other friend. A nickel on the 3 and a dime on the 6 to keep it interesting.

Fast forward a couple of years and Dick and I happen to be playing a game for old times' sake. There is no way for him to win. Shooting the eight ball off somewhere near the foot spot for the game, I draw the cue ball in an arc up to a head pocket for a scratch. He doesn't understand that it was intentional. He doesn't understand anything. One downside of learning the game well is that your friends will not be joining you on the trip.

Did I develop an OK game just because of hard work? Of course not. I brought various characteristics to the deal that together let me play better than 99.9% of all people who have ever played pool. And if you think that's tremendous bragging, it's not. The vast majority of pool players can barely hit the end rail with three tries. That percentile puts me in the top 100,000 or so. Sometimes I might even play better than that.:wink:

And I'm not sure I'd call it hard work anyway. I played because it was fun. Especially, it was fun to win. But it was also fun to understand what the balls did and why, and to make them do unusual things. Willie Mosconi taught me the fun shots. I've seen lots of players who had no interest in the fun stuff. I feel sorry for them.

How well would Dick have played if he had been interested? I think he would have remained a better player than I was and he probably could have done it with less time on the table. But he had no interest.

I think some people like to ascribe their success to their hard work rather than any talent out of pride. I worked for mine, dammit! OK. I remember a family story... My mother was proud of my grades in school. I suspect she was bragging a little too much to my grandmother (her mother-in-law). Granny says, "Oh, he's just got a trick memory."

WildWing · Sep 25, 2020

It's going to be a big problem for those who make their living teaching the game. But...

The greats in the game didn't take lessons.

They did it with talent. Name me the teachers who taught Mosconi, Lassiter, Sigel, etc... They may have watched a bit, but they didn't take lessons.

Hard work, yes, they did. Their built-in talent was the key though.

All the best,
WW

couldnthinkof01 · Sep 25, 2020

WildWing said:
It's going to be a big problem for those who make their living teaching the game. But...

The greats in the game didn't take lessons.

They did it with talent. Name me the teachers who taught Mosconi, Lassiter, Sigel, etc... They may have watched a bit, but they didn't take lessons.

Hard work, yes, they did. Their built-in talent was the key though.

All the best,
WW

Not in the literal sense but many had mentors to give
them the foundation and show them a few moves.

The problem with these clinics or taking a lesson here
or there for $200-2000 is that you need a guy there
day in and day out. Not just once in a while/ lifetime.

Just one guys opinion of course.

I will add that without good hand
eye coordination and a deep competitive
spirit these mentors would not have
have given them a second look.

mikemosconi · Sep 25, 2020

A story I like to tell about talent vs.hard work- a good friend of mine and I are big jazz fans- my friend decided to take up the SAX because he loved the music so much- after many, many lessons, one day Grover Washington was being played while my friend was taking a lesson- he seriously asked the instructor- when will I begin to sound like Grover in some form or other- the instructor looked at him and replied just as seriously- NEVER! - Brutal honesty about talent vs. hard work!

Pros and cons of believing in talent or hard work

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