Quality Instructors

Does an instructor's playing ability impact your willingness to take lessons?

  • Yes: How can someone teach what they can't do themselves?

    Votes: 51 53.7%
  • No: Teaching ability and the ability to communicate effectively trumps playing ability

    Votes: 44 46.3%

  • Total voters
    95
  • Poll closed .

rrick33

Rick
Silver Member
Krupa, you summarize the poll as a single question....."Does an instructor's playing ability impact your willingness to take lessons?

If the intent was to ask that question, then why not simply pose that question like the vast majority of threads on this site?

Instead it was presented as a yes or no proposition.

Yes: How can someone teach what they can't do themselves?
No: Teaching ability and the ability to communicate effectively trumps playing ability

The poll offers only two options and if you read most of the responses, you probably noticed that many people fell distinctly on one side or the other.
Either they can or they can't. Such is the nature of a two option poll.

That being the case, any strong player would be hugely disadvantaged to believe that only an instructor who plays better than themselves can teach them anything.

Even a modest level of integrative thinking would suggest that there would be very few instructors who would qualify for strong players who held this belief.

That's why it's a terrible proposition for strong players who will only take lessons from stronger instructors and that's why I suggest they simply go to a pro if they think that way.

After all, if you're in that mindset, what are you going to do when you surpass your instructors abilities? It would seem then that any level of knowledge the instructor may possess would be irrelevant.
You are now a stronger "performer". Despite the fact that the player may be practicing 10-15+ hours a week while the instructor may not practice at all.

It is insulting to qualified instructors to be confronted with the proposition that their knowledge and teaching skills are trumped by the illusion that physical ability is tied to credibility.
 
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Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Should master level instructors at least play at a master level? If they got the knowledge, the perfect stroke, I see no reason why they shouldn't be near a bottom level pro. Excluding any health, physical handicaps, old age etc. but play that level at least for a period of time sometime in their life.

Seems to me, what I'm learning is to have about 5 instructors that build the foundation for a complete player! Of course one would advance to the next after mastering the past instructor. And if you think about this....... This is what everyone does anyway! We started off playing a buddy, learned everything from him till he never wins. Then we find a better buddy and repeat, before you relieze it you're traveling to play better players!! At my age now I could probably benefit from an hr of stroke training, but sure could use a months worth of playing training!

Maybe you need to go back and re-read what has been posted.
 

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Dick...Now I'm not talking down to you, but c'mon, with that downright negative attitude, you're working against advancing the sport...you know, that thing you claim to love, and gave you a living your whole life? Us instructors...all 400 of us...are leading the charge to change the attitudes and behavior of poolplayers everywhere, and young people in particular. After all, they are the future of our sport.

If you call "highly proficient" to mean playing at your top speed, or that of any number of other top pros, I would agree that few, if any, will progress to that level. That said, when you can take a new player, and teach and coach them all the way to winning a national tournament, in less than 5 years...I'd call that becoming highly proficient. Almost every Master Instructor I know, including myself, have done that with at least one student, if not several. So, given that context, in the future it's possible that we may get more young people involved in pool. Mark Wilson's program at Lindenwood University is definitely "on the radar" for young players. I spoke with 50 junior players last July in Chicago at the Jr. Nationals, and every one of them expressed an interest in attending Lindenwood. One thing's for sure, you're never gonna get a concussion from playing pool!:D

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Most of us played baseball/football, from our earliest years, right on up through HS and college!..Sheer overwhelming numbers, will always push learning a demanding skill like pool, to the back of the bus!..That is not likely to ever change!..

All top pool players, know what it took for them to become highly skilled at the game!..Obviously, the game of pool will never be able to compete with mainstream sports, on a 'popularity' level..But I will always insist, a far lower percentage of poolplayers, will become highly proficient at it, than any physically demanding sport!..:D
 

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What makes you think that they don't? What level is "master level"?...run 2-3 racks?...run 50 in straight pool?...run 8 and out in 1-pkt? Who's making that determination?

How many Master Instructors have YOU played? None? That's what I thought. Get out of your basement, go find a Master Instructor, and offer to gamble some with him/her. You might find that you'd benefit more from a month of stroke training, and a couple of hours of strong play...than the other way around. You keep forgetting...you don't know what you don't know. :rolleyes:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Should master level instructors at least play at a master level? If they got the knowledge, the perfect stroke, I see no reason why they shouldn't be near a bottom level pro. Excluding any health, physical handicaps, old age etc. but play that level at least for a period of time sometime in their life.

At my age now I could probably benefit from an hr of stroke training, but sure could use a months worth of playing training!
 

denzilla171

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Why did the best pitching coach not win a Cy Young, and in some cases, ever pitch in the MLB?.

Why does the best hitting coach usually a guy who never played pro ball or if did, was a .200 hitter?

What did they learn about their shortcomings as well as the shortcomings of many other players? What did they learn from very good hitters? What did they learn from other very good coaches?

What did they learn about learning to "tweak" someone and getting them to "buy" into their program even though it goes against everything that hitter was taught before?

Why didn't Tiger Woods take lessons from Arnie, instead of a guy who never played pro? Makes you wonder, why in all American sports is does not seem to matter, except in the game of pool ;)

It's simple, they all became serious students of the game and starting analyzing every aspect of it, from mechanics to the mental game and then begin teaching what they wish they knew years before :thumbup:


Pretty much this. ^

People with great natural ability are seldom good teachers. It's the guy who has had to scratch and claw to figure out things without natural talent that knows how to explain the hows and whys, sometimes even to players with much higher natural ability...
 
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SJDinPHX

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Dick...Now I'm not talking down to you, but c'mon, with that downright negative attitude, you're working against advancing the sport...you know, that thing you claim to love, and gave you a living your whole life? Us instructors...all 400 of us...are leading the charge to change the attitudes and behavior of poolplayers everywhere, and young people in particular. After all, they are the future of our sport.

If you call "highly proficient" to mean playing at your top speed, or that of any number of other top pros, I would agree that few, if any, will progress to that level. That said, when you can take a new player, and teach and coach them all the way to winning a national tournament, in less than 5 years...I'd call that becoming highly proficient. Almost every Master Instructor I know, including myself, have done that with at least one student, if not several. So, given that context, in the future it's possible that we may get more young people involved in pool. Mark Wilson's program at Lindenwood University is definitely "on the radar" for young players. I spoke with 50 junior players last July in Chicago at the Jr. Nationals, and every one of them expressed an interest in attending Lindenwood. One thing's for sure, you're never gonna get a concussion from playing pool!:D

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Scott, what you seem to perceive as a negative attitude, is just me trying to accurately assess the true value of instruction at pool..I have no argument with your group being able to help beginners..You do graciously admit, that the large percentage of 'wannabe' players, will never progress beyond 'C' player level..And we both know, endless hours of coaching will never change that..Also, if someone needs to be taught the game for 5 yrs., it is very unlikely they would ever become a top player anyway!..That is not advancing the sport! :cool:

My only real negative, is your ongoing insistence that you can really make a difference in someones game, when their game is already superior to their instructors! ..Most top professional athletes retain the services of a coach, to keep them doing what they already do best..They do not expect someone, who is well below their skill level, to actually 'teach' them anything!..To me, that should be the main function of a pro's coach, not to insist that they can teach them what they obviously already know better than the coach!

It appears according to the informal poll, about half agree with me..That coaching, even if well presented, will not make that much difference overall! (the other half, may be only 12 yrs. old ;))..How can you insist that you are responsible, for helping so many people become 'great players', when they most likely possessed the natural talent to become great on their own?..If we could take a poll of all the top player's, I would be very surprised if 10% of them, had ever had a formal lesson!

PS...See, its not that hard to be civil now is it? ;)

Dick

LATE EDIT; At least you are not like ChicagoRJ..He likes to use every other sport in the world, to form his unintelligible analogies!..Makes me wonder if he's ever even actually played pool? :p :p :p
 
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FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Pretty much this. ^

People with great natural ability are seldom good teachers. It's the guy who has had to scratch and claw to figure out things without natural talent that knows how to explain the hows and whys, sometimes even to players with much higher natural ability...

That is one of the biggest misunderstandings in sports. Natural ability will only take a player to a certain point. At some point they have to dig in and do the work if they want to be great. Being able to teach is a personality issue. If a great player possesses the right personality to teach, then he or she will be a great teacher.

Most top players don't teach while they're competing because playing at such a high level takes 100% effort and hard work on their own game. You have to be totally self-centered to stay at that level. Helping others comes later, if they are so inclined.
 
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Tramp Steamer

One Pocket enthusiast.
Silver Member
Scott, what you seem to perceive as a negative attitude, is just me trying to accurately assess the true value of instruction at pool..I have no argument with your group being able to help beginners..You do graciously admit, that the large percentage of 'wannabe' players, will never progress beyond 'C' player level..And we both know, endless hours of coaching will never change that..Also, if someone needs to be taught the game for 5 yrs., it is very unlikely they would ever become a top player anyway!..That is not advancing the sport! :cool:

My only real negative, is your ongoing insistence that you can really make a difference in someones game, when their game is already superior to their instructors! ..Most top professional athletes retain the services of a coach, to keep them doing what they already do best..They do not expect someone, who is well below their skill level, to actually 'teach' them anything!..To me, that should be the main function of a pro's coach, not to insist that they can teach them what they obviously already know better than the coach!

It appears according to the informal poll, about half agree with me..That coaching, even if well presented, will not make that much difference overall! (the other half, may be only 12 yrs. old ;))..How can you insist that you are responsible, for helping so many people become 'great players', when they most likely possessed the natural talent to become great on their own?..If we could take a poll of all the top player's, I would be very surprised if 10% of them, had ever had a formal lesson!

PS...See, its not that hard to be civil now is it? ;)

Dick

LATE EDIT; At least you are not like ChicagoRJ..He likes to use every other sport in the world, to form his unintelligible analogies!..Makes me wonder if he's ever even actually played pool? :p :p :p


I have yet to hear this argument put any better that what Dick has just written. :clapping:
 

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
My only real negative, is your ongoing insistence that you can really make a difference in someones game, when their game is already superior to their instructors! ..Most top professional athletes retain the services of a coach, to keep them doing what they already do best..They do not expect someone, who is well below their skill level, to actually 'teach' them anything!..To me, that should be the main function of a pro's coach, not to insist that they can teach them what they obviously already know better than the coach!

]


So, Jose Abreu, who makes $12M per season, and was Rookie of the Year just a couple of years ago, could not hit the first half of the season this year.... well, at least he was not a $12M hitter, he was hitting like a $4M hitter. The hitting coach began breaking his swing down, piece by piece, and built him back up. Jose was on fire the second half of the season. Funny, a guy who had a total of 11 hits in his professional career, helped an All Star player, who is now hitting over .300 in the second half of the season.

How did a guy, who could not hit, teach a professional making $12M a year how to hit ?? Weird, huh ? The guy making $200K a year fixed a $12M a year player !!!
 
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Tramp Steamer

One Pocket enthusiast.
Silver Member
How did a guy, who could not hit, teach a professional making $12M a year how to hit ?? Weird, huh ? The guy making $200K a year fixed a $12M a year player !!!


RJ, you're just like your brother PJ, may he rest in piece. You think you know everything.
Obviously the poor guy simply reminded the rich guy of something that was missing in his swing. Hell, even a fan of the game might have seen it, but of course didn't have access to the player.
Remember: Newspapers are meant to be understood by sixth-graders. :yes:
 

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
RJ, you're just like your brother PJ, may he rest in piece. You think you know everything.
Obviously the poor guy simply reminded the rich guy of something that was missing in his swing. Hell, even a fan of the game might have seen it, but of course didn't have access to the player.
Remember: Newspapers are meant to be understood by sixth-graders. :yes:


PJ is dead ?

Riiiight, the fans knew what was wrong ? Give me a break. The coach has been studying the mechanics of the baseball swing, head movement, eyes, when to load, how to recognize the different pitches, how to stride, how to get the most power by the stance, for 20 years, he studies his players, and knows more about their swings then they do.

So, if coaching is so bad, why do they need them ? I mean, could not the fans just call up and tell the hitters, pitchers, and fielders what's wrong and how to correct it??

Clubs would save a TON of money, right ?

Now you guys are just being silly. You know more than all of the MLB, NFL, NHL, NBA, etc. etc. etc., you know, the leagues were players become millionaires.
Heck, I know some college football coaches that are making $7M per year. Maybe the fans could just call in the plays, and save some money.... LOL

I'll just chalk it up to the "old guys can never be wrong" syndrome that seems to be going around this time of year :)
 
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one stroke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
PJ is dead ??

Riiiight, the fans knew what was wrong ?? Give me a break. The coach has been studying the mechanics of the baseball swing, head movement, eyes, when to load, how to recognize the different pitches, how to stride, how to get the most power by the stance, for 20 years, he studies his players, and knows more about their swings then the do.

So, if coaching is so bad, why do they need them ? I mean, could not the fans just call up and tell the hitters, pitchers, and fielders what's wrong and how to correct it??

Clubs would save a TON of money, right ?

Now you guys are just being silly. You know more than all of the MLB, NFL, NHL, NBA, etc. etc. etc. Heck, I know some college football coaches that are making $7M per year. Maybe the fans could just call in the plays, and save some money.... LOL

I'll just chalk it up to the "old guys can never be wrong" syndrome that seems to be going around this time of year :)

Add most of the World Event pool winners to the list of coached also you could make a case that's why Americans are falling off the cliff in theses events because they have none

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jeffj2h

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I can comment on why Bert Kinister has a "preliminary starter rating". He hasn't played tournaments in years.

He has played in zero events in 2016. In 2015 he was on my APA team in Dallas (which unfortunately is not in Fargo) and I don't recall him playing any tournaments.

In the last 5 years he has probably played in a couple of regional scotch doubles tournaments and that's it.

So his rating means nothing.
 

randyg

www.randygpool.com
Silver Member
Thanks to Alma Mottey, Fargo and the International Billiards Society for compiling the graph below. Here is an all inclusive list of the industry's Master Instructor's Fargo Ratings. After viewing the thread title I thought I would share this information with anyone interested. I find it interesting that many of the instructors on the list haven't played in enough tournaments to have ratings or they have starter scores of 525. By the way 675 is considered to be around pro speed. The higher the score the greater the player's ability. I don't claim to be an expert on this, but it is good food for thought.




Where the heck did this come from.

Not all these are "certified" Master Instructors. A few have passed away and a couple don't even teach.

Let's get our facts straight!!!!
randyg
"
 

one stroke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Where the heck did this come from.

Not all these are "certified" Master Instructors. A few have passed away and a couple don't even teach.

Let's get our facts straight!!!!
randyg
"

So Who is and who isn't , let's get those facts straight ,

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one stroke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I still think what's lost in this thread is the use of a coach below the players speed and what he can actually help a player with ,, since we have yet to hear from one single instructor on what that may be , I'll take my lounge chair stab at it and hope we actually get someone who does it to chime in

To me the use of a coach at upper level A and above will only pay dividends if the coach watches the pupil during competitive play that's where the flaws are most likely to come out , mechanics are stressed most under pressure not in a practice environment ,
When those are spotted whether live or on tape , those are the type of things that can be irioned out with a differanrt approach to those shots ,
Maybe the pupil one stroked these shots hello nice to meet you or he / she stroked the cue many times past thier usual PSR

How to actualy go about running a rack is subjective watch a video here with Earl and Archer , with Grady and Mike S now where I could see would any off them go about that the same way so I'd say that that's the least of coaching methods it's more about keeping the mechanics intact thru out a match

1
 

SJDinPHX

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I still think what's lost in this thread is the use of a coach below the players speed and what he can actually help a player with ,, since we have yet to hear from one single instructor on what that may be , I'll take my lounge chair stab at it and hope we actually get someone who does it to chime in

To me the use of a coach at upper level A and above will only pay dividends if the coach watches the pupil during competitive play that's where the flaws are most likely to come out , mechanics are stressed most under pressure not in a practice environment ,
When those are spotted whether live or on tape , those are the type of things that can be irioned out with a differanrt approach to those shots ,
Maybe the pupil one stroked these shots hello nice to meet you or he / she stroked the cue many times past thier usual PSR

How to actually go about running a rack is subjective watch a video here with Earl and Archer , with Grady and Mike S now where I could see would any off them go about that the same way so I'd say that that's the least of coaching methods it's more about keeping the mechanics intact thru out a match

You make some valid points, but I think you may be 'over stressing' the advantages any instructor, can give any player, whose skill level is already well beyond their own!..The PSR of the top players you mentioned, has become an integral part of their game, since they first began playing..No instructor can accurately critique them, whether in practice or under game pressure situations..They are all somewhat unique, and many may use quite unorthodox methods in their mechanics!

All any coach/instructor can do is observe, they cannot change, nor are they likely to offer any worthwhile options, that will improve players of that caliber!..If they could, they would have to be the better player, that will never change!..Quite often, certain top quality instructors tend to claim they can improve 'anyones' game, novice or pro alike!..IMO, that is simply not being realistic!

PS..After I retired from competitive pool, I did enjoy some coaching/instructing for a few years..However, I only worked at teaching one specific game, one pocket, and only then with fairly advanced players..It did not take me long to figure out I did not have the patience to deal with 'newbies' or novices!..I do admire good instructors, who can work with, and benefit players of all different skill levels..Their services will always be much needed!
 
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Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The reason we're not "chiming in" is because it's pointless to argue with people who just don't know what they're talking about...regardless of how good they used to play. Just last weekend I had an instructor in Jacksonville FL talk about working with Rodney Morris, specifically on a stroke issue, and Rodney made a point of coming back to him and telling him how helpful that information was. That is an example of an instructor who doesn't play anywhere near Rodney's speed, not only noticing and analyzing an issue Rodney was having, but having the guts to go up to him, get him to listen to what he wanted to teach him, take it to the table, and work it out...and then come back and compliment that instructor for the help he gave him. That instructor is Bill Pelham. If you know Rodney, ask him about it. Now SJD says that CAN'T happen, and if it did, it COULDN'T possibly be of any real benefit to the pro player. Guess what Dick...wrong again.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I still think what's lost in this thread is the use of a coach below the players speed and what he can actually help a player with ,, since we have yet to hear from one single instructor on what that may be , I'll take my lounge chair stab at it and hope we actually get someone who does it to chime in

To me the use of a coach at upper level A and above will only pay dividends if the coach watches the pupil during competitive play that's where the flaws are most likely to come out , mechanics are stressed most under pressure not in a practice environment ,
When those are spotted whether live or on tape , those are the type of things that can be irioned out with a differanrt approach to those shots ,
Maybe the pupil one stroked these shots hello nice to meet you or he / she stroked the cue many times past thier usual PSR

How to actualy go about running a rack is subjective watch a video here with Earl and Archer , with Grady and Mike S now where I could see would any off them go about that the same way so I'd say that that's the least of coaching methods it's more about keeping the mechanics intact thru out a match

1
 

SJDinPHX

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The reason we're not "chiming in" is because it's pointless to argue with people who just don't know what they're talking about...regardless of how good they used to play. Just last weekend I had an instructor in Jacksonville FL talk about working with Rodney Morris, specifically on a stroke issue, and Rodney made a point of coming back to him and telling him how helpful that information was. That is an example of an instructor who doesn't play anywhere near Rodney's speed, not only noticing and analyzing an issue Rodney was having, but having the guts to go up to him, get him to listen to what he wanted to teach him, take it to the table, and work it out...and then come back and compliment that instructor for the help he gave him. That instructor is Bill Pelham. If you know Rodney, ask him about it. Now SJD says that CAN'T happen, and if it did, it COULDN'T possibly be of any real benefit to the pro player. Guess what Dick...wrong again.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Scott, if you want to point out one, very isolated incident, to support your endless claims..be my guest!..I will not bore everyone with the hundreds of 'teaching' incidents, that are much more realistic!..If that makes me wrong in your eyes..so be it!..I already conceded that 'good' instructors serve a much needed purpose..You insist on trying to make them out to be a completely infallible benefit, to ALL pro players!..Sorry, but that is simply not the case!..

From what I know of Rodney, he would go out of his way to be polite to anyone, regardless of the actual benefit, especially now that he is becoming an instructor himself!...Do you even wish to argue the point I made earlier, that I doubt 90% of all top players, have ever had even one single lesson, from a 'Master Instructor'?..Don't go there, you can't win! ;)
 
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