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 (#16) UnintendedEnglish AzB Bronze Member   Status: Offline Posts: 4 vCash: 500 iTrader: 0 / 0% Join Date: Jun 2019 Location: BayArea 10-08-2019, 05:03 PM Damn the torpedoes... I'm gonna try to help. Yes, there are 4 'perceptions'. From the perception, each require a 1/2 tip pivot. Each has a 'label' or 'name', 15, 30, 45 and 60. Don't get hung up on the angle measurement, they're just labels. Whereas it would seem there are 8 different shot angles, there are really just 7 because a 30 thickened and a 15 thinned are the same shot. The 15 and 30 require a 2 line perception. The 15 is CBE to a 1/4 (whether it's 'A' or 'C') AND CBC to OBE (you can even let your eyes slightly blur to 'see' this). The 30 is CBE to 'B' AND CBC to OBE. The pivot then thins or thickens the shot. The 45 and 60 are 1 line perceptions. CBE to 'A' or 'C' or edge to 1/8th. One of the real problems w/ ghost ball or contact points is that...as the distance between CB and OB increases, the relative size of the balls change making it hard to be accurate. The reason I say, "don't get hung up on measuring the cut angle and trying to match this guess w/ a CTE 'label'" is hard to understand and needs to be worked with and practiced, but is exemplified by this. When the balls are fairly close together, a shot may in fact be close to 30* and is pocketed by a 30 thinned. This same angle - when the balls are far apart - might be pocketed by a 15 thickened. Another example could be - when the balls are really close - like an inch, or less - a 30* angle might be pocketed by a 60* perception. CTE is about perceptions and finding a r/ship between the CB and OB. Don't get hung up on trying to explain to yourself (or others, God forbid) that there are only 7 aiming lines, etc. I think CTE adds significant info for shotmaking and is more than worthwhile to work with. And please...if you're a hater, give it a rest. Last edited by UnintendedEnglish; 10-08-2019 at 05:15 PM.

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Patrick Johnson
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10-08-2019, 07:33 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by UnintendedEnglish Damn the torpedoes... I'm gonna try to help. Yes, there are 4 'perceptions'. From the perception, each require a 1/2 tip pivot. Each has a 'label' or 'name', 15, 30, 45 and 60. Don't get hung up on the angle measurement, they're just labels. Whereas it would seem there are 8 different shot angles, there are really just 7 because a 30 thickened and a 15 thinned are the same shot. The 15 and 30 require a 2 line perception. The 15 is CBE to a 1/4 (whether it's 'A' or 'C') AND CBC to OBE (you can even let your eyes slightly blur to 'see' this). The 30 is CBE to 'B' AND CBC to OBE. The pivot then thins or thickens the shot. The 45 and 60 are 1 line perceptions. CBE to 'A' or 'C' or edge to 1/8th. One of the real problems w/ ghost ball or contact points is that...as the distance between CB and OB increases, the relative size of the balls change making it hard to be accurate. The reason I say, "don't get hung up on measuring the cut angle and trying to match this guess w/ a CTE 'label'" is hard to understand and needs to be worked with and practiced, but is exemplified by this. When the balls are fairly close together, a shot may in fact be close to 30* and is pocketed by a 30 thinned. This same angle - when the balls are far apart - might be pocketed by a 15 thickened. Another example could be - when the balls are really close - like an inch, or less - a 30* angle might be pocketed by a 60* perception. CTE is about perceptions and finding a r/ship between the CB and OB. Don't get hung up on trying to explain to yourself (or others, God forbid) that there are only 7 aiming lines, etc. I think CTE adds significant info for shotmaking and is more than worthwhile to work with. And please...if you're a hater, give it a rest.
Kudos for providing actual info. I only take exception to the unnecessary and inaccurate dig at other methods like contact points and ghost ball - distance perspective is no more of an issue for them than it is for any method, including CTE.

pj
chgo

(#18)
UnintendedEnglish
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10-08-2019, 07:47 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson Kudos for providing actual info. I only take exception to the unnecessary and inaccurate dig at other methods like contact points and ghost ball - distance perspective is no more of an issue for them than it is for any method, including CTE. pj chgo
Not really a dig. Wanted to make the point - and offer a possible explanation - that similar angles at different distances call for a different CTE visual.

I guess, if I were to think about it this way, I might say that CTE gives one a method to deal with the challenge of distance perspective.

Last edited by UnintendedEnglish; 10-08-2019 at 09:44 PM.

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Patrick Johnson
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10-09-2019, 01:48 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by UnintendedEnglish ...similar angles at different distances call for a different CTE visual. ...CTE gives one a method to deal with the challenge of distance perspective.
And so does every other system. CTE didn't invent "visuals" - all systems use them (even non-system aiming). CTE is just the only one to (wrongly) claim its visuals are something different than the usual aiming alignments ("shot pictures") learned/memorized through repetitious practice.

pj
chgo

 (#20) stockbob55 AzB Bronze Member   Status: Offline Posts: 38 vCash: 500 iTrader: 1 / 100% Join Date: Oct 2011 10-10-2019, 05:29 AM With manual pivoting you are not on the shotline until after the half tip pivot. When I was first learning cte this video helped me the most. https://youtu.be/2KwI_62Npos
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10-10-2019, 06:24 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by stockbob55 With manual pivoting you are not on the shotline until after the half tip pivot. When I was first learning cte this video helped me the most. https://youtu.be/2KwI_62Npos
Thank you for pointing that out and bringing up this video.
And it is a very good video too.
As soon as students realize that the aiming line and shot line are two different things. And how to really use their eyes. Their progress will begin to skyrocket.

I have trained in that studio on his monstrous, one piece slate, 10 foot Diamond table and have seen his visual training aids. The man is an absolute wizard when it comes to transferring knowledge. Probably due to his many years as a career school teacher.
If I can find an open spot in his schedule, I plan on returning in the spring for a week of study on banks. I've watched him, with my own eyes, pocketing those 2, 3, and 4 rail banks and it isn't because he was "born in Kentucky" or "has hit a million banks" either. KNOWLEDGE is the key! (I have a hunch that his Truth Series and his Book will have all I want to know about banks in them though)

"It is almost impossible to free fools from the chains they revere."

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10-10-2019, 06:33 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson And so does every other system. CTE didn't invent "visuals" - all systems use them (even non-system aiming). CTE is just the only one to (wrongly) claim its visuals are something different than the usual aiming alignments ("shot pictures") learned/memorized through repetitious practice. pj chgo
Wrong again.
After 15 years of bad mouthing the CTE method of playing pool, you still don't realize you're, figuratively speaking, sitting in a broken down EL out at 47th and Vincennes, nibbling on a hot dog, while the new breed of the pool world is lounging at a first class restaurant in the loop with lobster and champagne.

"It is almost impossible to free fools from the chains they revere."

 (#23) Vorpal Cue Just galumping back     Status: Offline Posts: 336 vCash: 500 iTrader: 0 / 0% Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Tulgy Woods 10-10-2019, 07:19 AM It's incorrect to equate a one line 'shot picture' with a CTE 'visual'. A CTE visual is unique. It's a 2 line alignment. Every other aiming system uses just one line. Other pivoting systems such as 90/90, shish-kabob, Stan's visual quarters, etc. use just one line also. Of course CP2CP, quarters, overlaps, and GB are single line systems. I've not read anything where the 'shot picture' is referred to as a 'visual' when using those systems. If anyone can think of another aiming system using a 2 line approach I'd like to hear about it. A CTE visual is different from the usual alignment systems. Using quarters as an example, assume a 30* cut to the right. You stand over the CB and aim the center at the left edge of the OB. No author explaining the system EVER mentions where the edge of the CB is directed. It's only where the center of the CB is aimed. A similar alignment in CTE is a B visual. In this system you stand with your feet and body on the left side of the OB - CB centerline, NOT behind the CB. You aim the center of the CB at the left edge of the OB similar to the quarters alignment. You then adjust your body so the edge of the CB aligns with the center of the OB. It's this slight alignment which makes it unique. A half ball quarters aim line is NOT the same as a B visual. Anyone who suggests the two are equivalent are grossly misinformed about CTE. My Vorpal cue jabbed 'er wonky and the shot went snicker-snack. 'Twas brillig.
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10-10-2019, 08:42 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Low500 Wrong again. After 15 years of bad mouthing the CTE method of playing pool, you still don't realize you're, figuratively speaking, sitting in a broken down EL out at 47th and Vincennes, nibbling on a hot dog, while the new breed of the pool world is lounging at a first class restaurant in the loop with lobster and champagne.
lol

And you evidently still don't know that believing your favorite system is magic is just plain dumb.

pj
chgo

(#25)
Patrick Johnson
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10-10-2019, 08:46 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Vorpal Cue A CTE visual is unique.
Every aiming system visual is unique to that system. CTE's two-line system is one of the interesting things about it, but it's still just another way to visualize CB/OB alignments that helps to memorize/recall them - like every other system. And, by the way, the center-to-edge line is used as an "orientation" alignment in other systems too.

CTE is just another one like all the other ones - if anything's "special" about it, it's those who believe it's different.

pj
chgo

Last edited by Patrick Johnson; 10-10-2019 at 08:55 AM.

(#26)
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10-10-2019, 10:31 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson Every aiming system visual is unique to that system. CTE's two-line system is one of the interesting things about it, but it's still just another way to visualize CB/OB alignments that helps to memorize/recall them - like every other system. And, by the way, the center-to-edge line is used as an "orientation" alignment in other systems too. CTE is just another one like all the other ones - if anything's "special" about it, it's those who believe it's different. pj chgo
You're still trying to equate a CTE visual with a so called 'shot picture'. I'd never heard the term 'visual' used in relation to aiming until I heard of Hal Houle's systems. Perhaps you can direct us to some aiming system that used the concept of visuals before Hal Houle. The only ones I'm aware of are those that are one of his clones.

The correct shot line for all the various systems was normally called an aim point, line of aim, or some such term. The closest system that may claim to use 'visuals' would be overlaps. Here you're told to 'visually' (note this is an adverb, not a noun) overlap the OB and CB to get the correct contact point. But to call them 'visuals' is really stretching the term as applied to CTE.

CTE users have no need to memorize all the various shot angles/overlaps/alignments. The visuals and pivot/sweep are all that are needed for their shots. If that isn't different from other aiming systems I suggest you pull out your dictionary.

My Vorpal cue jabbed 'er wonky and the shot went snicker-snack. 'Twas brillig.

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Patrick Johnson
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10-10-2019, 11:22 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Vorpal Cue CTE users have no need to memorize all the various shot angles/overlaps/alignments. The visuals and pivot/sweep are all that are needed for their shots.
Like the visuals and pivots/sweeps for fractional aiming, or 90/90 aiming, or shish-ka-bob aiming, or... well, you get the idea.

Or not...

pj
chgo

(#28)
Vorpal Cue
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10-10-2019, 01:13 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson Like the visuals and pivots/sweeps for fractional aiming, or 90/90 aiming, or shish-ka-bob aiming, or... well, you get the idea. Or not... pj chgo
All the systems you mentioned are one line systems. You're aiming at a point of the OB thru center CB. Yes, even 90/90 is a one line system. It's a simple overlap. A CTE visual uses two lines and is unique. You're just plain wrong.

When's the first time you heard of a visual? Tell us, if you can, of any book, article, or publication that used the concept of a visual before Houle. If you can..

...or not.

My Vorpal cue jabbed 'er wonky and the shot went snicker-snack. 'Twas brillig.

(#29)
BC21
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10-10-2019, 02:40 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Vorpal Cue ......... CTE users have no need to memorize all the various shot angles/overlaps/alignments. The visuals and pivot/sweep are all that are needed for their shots......

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson Like the visuals and pivots/sweeps for fractional aiming, or 90/90 aiming, or shish-ka-bob aiming, or... well, you get the idea. Or not... pj chgo

I don't believe memorization is optional. If we repeat a particular process enough times, that process gets embedded into the subconscious, sort of like a computer program. The program then runs automatically based on the sensory input supplied to the brain. In other words, as soon as we see a shot (or the cb-ob relationship on the table) the brain begins searching its database of recognized/memorized shots for something similar. And like magic you find yourself automatically aligning your body and stroke for the shot. The process is automatic, though we are consciously providing real time visual input needed to guide the process.

This happens with any aiming method. Experienced players know/recognize more shots. They have greater shot recognition. Players with limited experience have limited shot recognition. The proof is in the fact that experienced CTE users can recognize exactly when a shot requires a 30 inside or a 15 outside or whatever, just as experienced fractional aimers and ghostball aimers can recognize where the cb needs to be as soon as they see the shot.

Experience inadvertently builds shot recognition/memorization, allowing the subconscious to call up the appropriate aiming process for a given shot, whether it's a certain 2-line visual perception and sweep or a single visual of a fractional aim line or a ghostball line. That's why practice, quality table time, is very important.

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(#30)
Patrick Johnson
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10-10-2019, 04:03 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by BC21 I don't believe memorization is optional. If we repeat a particular process enough times, that process gets embedded into the subconscious, sort of like a computer program. The program then runs automatically based on the sensory input supplied to the brain.
Yes, and to be clear, aiming systems aren't the program - they're "organizing" data (usually visualized alignments of fixed "landmarks" on the balls) we provide to the subconscious to assist its computation.

Aiming systems (and non-system aiming) don't really differ much in those elemental terms - they differ mostly in how we describe them to ourselves.

pj
chgo

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