You know, after I posted this I thought about you. Thought to myself, "You should have looked on Dr. Dave's site. Bet he's written a book about this."
Guess I was correct!
YOUR Definition of Player Levels
- Thread starter Korsakoff
- Start date
You know, after I posted this I thought about you. Thought to myself, "You should have looked on Dr. Dave's site. Bet he's written a book about this."
Guess I was correct!
I think the only rating that is somewhat consistent is an A player. Because everyone knows who they are. The top local guys. A player of rating B, C, D, no one cares about them, they don't become "known". Hence its hard to compare B C D amongst different areas.
IMO:
Open: Will cash in major national events like the US Open, but would never place high in the US Open.
A: Will beat the 9 ball ghost on a GC factory pocket and will bet on himself and win in the long run.
B: Will break even with the 5 ball ghost on same table (rack 5 total balls, not 9 balls and play to the 5).
C: Will break even with the 3 ball ghost.
D: Will NOT beat the 2 ball ghost.
Banger: Will NOT beat the 1 ball ghost.
As far as Fargo ratings, I can look up all the A and above players in my local area, and they are all on the system with a lot of games. It all lines up. But the C and D players, forget about it. They might have zero or 30 games, because they rarely travel to play any big tournmaents. So I really have no idea if a C is 300 or 400 or 500. The strong B's, (low 600 Fargos) usually have a decent amount of ratings in the system as they will travel to some events.
IMO:
Open: Will cash in major national events like the US Open, but would never place high in the US Open.
A: Will beat the 9 ball ghost on a GC factory pocket and will bet on himself and win in the long run.
B: Will break even with the 5 ball ghost on same table (rack 5 total balls, not 9 balls and play to the 5).
C: Will break even with the 3 ball ghost.
D: Will NOT beat the 2 ball ghost.
Banger: Will NOT beat the 1 ball ghost.
As far as Fargo ratings, I can look up all the A and above players in my local area, and they are all on the system with a lot of games. It all lines up. But the C and D players, forget about it. They might have zero or 30 games, because they rarely travel to play any big tournmaents. So I really have no idea if a C is 300 or 400 or 500. The strong B's, (low 600 Fargos) usually have a decent amount of ratings in the system as they will travel to some events.
What I’d like to know is the overall average using the A-D ability scale of every player in the world from Efren to each person that’s ever picked up a cue at least once in their life.
My bet the overall average is pretty low. Like a C minus.
I feel that most beginners, D, and low level C players play anonymously in private or with friends at a bar, or maybe in a league if they want some exposure, but I think they’re the majority.
There’s a lot of excellent A-B players, but I think it’s a small community at the top end who have dedication and talent. And I guess that’s what makes them pros or pro-ams. Just like any other sport.
I think getting from C to B and being competitive in the upper tiers is the biggest hurdle. I seem to fit into the solid C category, maybe C+ on some days, and lots of casual playing friends and relatives are under the impression I play like a B (have own cue, will travel), but they simply don’t know what it takes to be really good!
My bet the overall average is pretty low. Like a C minus.
I feel that most beginners, D, and low level C players play anonymously in private or with friends at a bar, or maybe in a league if they want some exposure, but I think they’re the majority.
There’s a lot of excellent A-B players, but I think it’s a small community at the top end who have dedication and talent. And I guess that’s what makes them pros or pro-ams. Just like any other sport.
I think getting from C to B and being competitive in the upper tiers is the biggest hurdle. I seem to fit into the solid C category, maybe C+ on some days, and lots of casual playing friends and relatives are under the impression I play like a B (have own cue, will travel), but they simply don’t know what it takes to be really good!
There are essentially four categories of players: A, B, C, and D.
Within each category, there are three distinct tiers: 1, 2 and 3.
In total, there’d be 12 ranking classifications for any pool player.
Professionals fall into categories A-1 & A-2; A-3 is for amateurs.
Thereafter, the other categories are strictly for amateur rankings.
Handicapping would be based entirely upon how players match up.
Within each category, there are three distinct tiers: 1, 2 and 3.
In total, there’d be 12 ranking classifications for any pool player.
Professionals fall into categories A-1 & A-2; A-3 is for amateurs.
Thereafter, the other categories are strictly for amateur rankings.
Handicapping would be based entirely upon how players match up.
We kept in real simple in my day. An 'A' player was a strong player who was tough to beat. He could take on just about anybody. A solid 'A' was a very good player and an 'A+' player was a champion. A low level 'A' player or 'A-" player was just a hair below the top players and a very strong shortstop speed.
A 'B' player was a shortstop. Still a good player but not strong enough for the 'A' players without a handicap. A 'B+' was a strong shortstop and it took a very good player to beat him. There were a lot of road men who were B+ to A- players. They just picked their spots and avoided the best players.
A 'C' player was just good enough to get himself in trouble. He could play a little but not good enough to beat any real player ('B' and above).
A 'D' player was a stone sucker! :wink:
A 'B' player was a shortstop. Still a good player but not strong enough for the 'A' players without a handicap. A 'B+' was a strong shortstop and it took a very good player to beat him. There were a lot of road men who were B+ to A- players. They just picked their spots and avoided the best players.
A 'C' player was just good enough to get himself in trouble. He could play a little but not good enough to beat any real player ('B' and above).
A 'D' player was a stone sucker! :wink:
Here in Colorado we use a system thats pretty simple.
(pot is legal here so if we get more complicated we all get confused LOL)
Pro
AAA
AA
A
B
C
Most league players here are B's.
(pot is legal here so if we get more complicated we all get confused LOL)
Pro
AAA
AA
A
B
C
Most league players here are B's.
Absolutely nailed it... Can't agree more with this assessment.
I will add that if we are going to adhere to the strict 4 levels of ranking. That the gap between A and B is large. The gaps between the other levels gets smaller as you run down the list
Sounds very similar to what we use for our Monday night handicap nine ball tournaments, where we only have four rankings - AA, A, B, C. We need to keep it simple as all races are either a race to 3 or 4, depending on the handicap difference between the two players.
Ranking difference of one between the two players is a one game spot in a race to four, ranking difference of two is a one game spot in a race to three, and max ranking difference of three is a two game spot in a race to four.
There is a huge discrepancy in skill levels among our AA players, which constitute the top six or eight players that play in our room. An out-of-town road player would still be ranked as a AA, although they may be far better. The fact that it’s such a short race to 3, so we see no reason to further handicap the top players if they are going to bother with the trip up here to play in our weekly tournament.
There’s also a huge skill range for our C ranked players, as if a player chooses to play who can’t even make a ball, they are still ranked as a C, even though our top C players are capable, but certainly far from likely of running out four or five balls.
vintagecuelover
Banned
A: Plays very strong at any game (8 ball, 9 ball, One Pocket, Banks, or 14.1) consistently, both offensively, and defensively. Has a very strong mental game, and is very smart, and knows how he is going to play each shot, and in which pocket, before getting down on the 1st shot.
B: Plays pretty good, and has a nice stroke. May not have that strong of a mental game, and is not always very consistent. Plays very good, but does not have all of the knowledge of the A player, or the consistency of the A player, but does have off and on spirts where he can play just as strong as the A player, but just not as consistent.
C: Plays decent, and might have a decent stroke, but still has a lot to learn. Very inconsistent.
D: Banger level. Does not have a decent bridge, or a decent stance when getting down on the ball, and does not care about position play. Only thinks about the shot he is shooting at, and does not think defensively.
B: Plays pretty good, and has a nice stroke. May not have that strong of a mental game, and is not always very consistent. Plays very good, but does not have all of the knowledge of the A player, or the consistency of the A player, but does have off and on spirts where he can play just as strong as the A player, but just not as consistent.
C: Plays decent, and might have a decent stroke, but still has a lot to learn. Very inconsistent.
D: Banger level. Does not have a decent bridge, or a decent stance when getting down on the ball, and does not care about position play. Only thinks about the shot he is shooting at, and does not think defensively.
vintagecuelover
Banned
I agree that the gap between the solid A level player and the solid B level player is large.
For example, I have seen many solid A level players give a solid B level player the 7, 8, and the breaks, playing 9 ball.
And in other games, like One Pocket, and Bank pool, the spot that the A level player could give the B player might be even greater then the spot they could give thgat player playing 9 ball.
Same goes for the type of spots a B player could give to a C player.
In New York, in the Tri-state tour handicapped events, an "A" player must give a "B" player two on the wire in a race to seven. A "B" player must give two on seven to a "C". An "A" player must give four on the wire going to nine to a "C" player. These spots tended to be pretty fair.
vintagecuelover
Banned
The thing about player levels is that everyone has a different opinion. For handicap tournaments the td has to determine what level each player is. This is a matter of his opinion and will probably vary from someone else’s opinion. Since you said leaving Fargo ratings out everything is based on opinion.
Fargo ratings can also be way off if they don’t have a lot of games in the system. For example I know a guy who beats the ghost on a 9’ Diamond with 5 year old cloth and his Fargo is 590. I know another guy with 658 rating and I’ve never seen him beat the ghost on a 9’ Diamond. Both players have very few games in the system
Fargo ratings can also be way off if they don’t have a lot of games in the system. For example I know a guy who beats the ghost on a 9’ Diamond with 5 year old cloth and his Fargo is 590. I know another guy with 658 rating and I’ve never seen him beat the ghost on a 9’ Diamond. Both players have very few games in the system
I read this thread pretty fast.
I didn’t see the word “short stop” once. Hmmm maybe I should read it again.
It’s a spectrum for sure
Best Ever*
Champion
Pro
Short stop
A
B
C
D
Banger
Beginner
That’s kinda what I’ve figured out over the years. That has to do with ability to perform for $, in a big arena, how you manage your match, in a bar, back room, team. A whole lot of factors.
*This is a short list. Efren, Busty, Mike, Earl, Johnny, Harold, Greenleaf, Willie. And a few more.
Best,
Fatboy (just a beginner trying to get better)
I didn’t see the word “short stop” once. Hmmm maybe I should read it again.
It’s a spectrum for sure
Best Ever*
Champion
Pro
Short stop
A
B
C
D
Banger
Beginner
That’s kinda what I’ve figured out over the years. That has to do with ability to perform for $, in a big arena, how you manage your match, in a bar, back room, team. A whole lot of factors.
*This is a short list. Efren, Busty, Mike, Earl, Johnny, Harold, Greenleaf, Willie. And a few more.
Best,
Fatboy (just a beginner trying to get better)
Around 20 years ago, a few known road players passed through our room. I played them both in an extremely long session, the best known of which I had a small spot against and I played even against the lesser known one. They ended up winning a modest score as I’m a conservative gambler - even more so against players I know who play better than me, but I made them work very long and hard for it.
I distinctly remember one saying to the other that I was a tough match and that I played at “shortstop” level, which was the first I’d heard of that term. I was pleasantly pleased to discover that it was very much a compliment. I wish I could say I still played at that level.
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Shortstop is strong, they paid you a good complement. And guys like that aren’t known for passing around complements too often. Well done!
I never got there on my best day. I might have played a few sets at that speed but was just a fluke-not a sustainable speed for me. Anyone can play over their head now and then.
Best,
Fatboy
Check Jay's post.
I know that the guy who beats me is at least a C player. "Anybody want to play some cheap sets?"
For Hard Time old timers. Every time I went into Hard Times I would always hear "Want to play some cheap sets?" The guy who always asked was Jerry Brunstetter. My answer was always the same, "Jerry we both know the only person the sets would be cheap for is you." That was the one constant to my game.
Thanks for all of the different rating methods. Same answer--check it out in your own way. That is as much a must as asking what the house rules are before playing a game of 8 Ball. Who would guess that there so many ways?
