Initial team usa squad is named for mosconi cup xxv

Hungarian · Jun 20, 2018

I believe it's more about being in the right state of mind for the event and less about the rankings list.

If Jeremy has the right roster he has the capability to get them to gell together. That's what he could do differently. Jeremy just has a personality that works well with many of the players and I think he can make a difference He's a winner and a leader. Given the circumstances, I don't think the American players will respond well to Ruijsink.

lorider said:
Well truthfully its hard to.ne positive given what has been posted in several threads regarding this subject.

No disrespect to Jeremy but I ask...what can be do that has not already been tried ? Admittedly the list is not finalized but several top players are missing so its hard to stay positive about that also.

Every one seems to be against this boot camp idea but I say drastic times call for drastic measures. Every one claims our top players are just as good as the Europeans and to some extent I agree but apparently they are not as good in the mosconi format. From what I have read one of the boot camps is actually an European tournament where our players will have a chance to win money. At least one boot camp will be against top European players in a mosconi style match. I believe both of those boot camps would be a positive experience for our players and while those boot camps may not suddenly turn our players into winners the experience definitely would not hurt our chances. However it seems some players .....and most members of this forum disagree with my opinion.

With that said.....what's so positive about kicking a well known coach who has a proven track record aside and let a player ...not a coach take 5 lesser caliber pros and make a winning team ? What would Jeremy say or do that has not been tried by any other American captain ?

Taxi · Jun 23, 2018

I don't know whether there are any stats for this, but I'd be inclined to go with the players who've shown they can beat the top European players in ANY competition, not just the Mosconi Cup.

Other than that, I'd take Billy Thorpe and maybe Corey Deuel, who seems to have stepped up his game over the past year. But the sad truth is that other than Shane Van Boner, there aren't any Americans who'd be in a top 20 or 25 combined list of NATO country players. Our top players simply don't have the monetary incentives to travel overseas to improve their games against the world's best players in Europe and Asia, and as a result they spend half their time ruining their game on those toy "Bar Box" tables, which are just an embarrassment to the sport. Bar Box tables should be reserved strictly for old school hustling, Romper Room tournaments and beer commercials.

Celtic · Jun 27, 2018

The general musings on this thread seem to suggest Shane resigned from Mosconi Cup competition.

I read the posting from SVB and he was 100% still willing to play in the Mosconi Cup and actually stated he hoped to still be included on the team, he was simply unwilling to do the "boot camp".

And so... now the best player in the USA without any real argument is off the USA Mosconi Cup team?

If I were Matchroom I would be pretty careful about this move. After many years of the USA already being outclassed because of the lack of true world class and battle hardened players who travel the world and play against the best of the best in world championships their answer to this was.... to remove the only player in the USA who actually plays full time professional pool and players in the world championships against the world best on a regular basis?

I am not sure Matchroom... now you have a bunch of part time USA players who rarely leave the USA and you are putting them up against world class pros? The USA team is now pretty much set at being regional very strong amateurs and 3/4 retired former pros. Is this really going to help the product you are trying to sell?

The Mosconi Cup needs to be the best of each area, and it needs to be competitive.

You just removed the hardest working player from the USA, the guy who travels the world to play the best of the best FAR more than any other player in the USA and puts himself in there against the worlds best. You did that because he would not do a "boot camp" with the other USA players who do not come even close to putting the same amount of commitment to the game as he does...

Think about that. Is that really the right move? SVB has lived boot camp the last 20 years. The problem with the last 10 years of the Mosconi Cup is that not another player from the USA has.

Try to see this from SVB's eyes, he is the only guy in the USA truly committed to the game for a very long time now, and he is being asked to do "boot camp" with a bunch of players who simply do not commit themselves to the sport like he does each and every year. Not sure he is wrong here for thinking that is wrong.

Maniac · Jun 27, 2018

Celtic said:
The general musings on this thread seem to suggest Shane resigned from Mosconi Cup competition.

I read the posting from SVB and he was 100% still willing to play in the Mosconi Cup and actually stated he hoped to still be included on the team, he was simply unwilling to do the "boot camp".

And so... now the best player in the USA without any real argument is off the USA Mosconi Cup team?

If I were Matchroom I would be pretty careful about this move. After many years of the USA already being outclassed because of the lack of true world class and battle hardened players who travel the world and play against the best of the best in world championships their answer to this was.... to remove the only player in the USA who actually plays full time professional pool and players in the world championships against the world best on a regular basis?

I am not sure Matchroom... now you have a bunch of part time USA players who rarely leave the USA and you are putting them up against world class pros? The USA team is now pretty much set at being regional very strong amateurs and 3/4 retired former pros. Is this really going to help the product you are trying to sell?

The Mosconi Cup needs to be the best of each area, and it needs to be competitive.

You just removed the hardest working player from the USA, the guy who travels the world to play the best of the best FAR more than any other player in the USA and puts himself in there against the worlds best. You did that because he would not do a "boot camp" with the other USA players who do not come even close to putting the same amount of commitment to the game as he does...

Think about that. Is that really the right move? SVB has lived boot camp the last 20 years. The problem with the last 10 years of the Mosconi Cup is that not another player from the USA has.

Try to see this from SVB's eyes, he is the only guy in the USA truly committed to the game for a very long time now, and he is being asked to do "boot camp" with a bunch of players who simply do not commit themselves to the sport like he does each and every year. Not sure he is wrong here for thinking that is wrong.

I've got no disagreements with this post. But then...I'm in the camp that opines the Mosconi Cup should be Europeans VS Asians. It would certainly be far more competitive AND entertaining.

Maniac

billiards102 · Jun 27, 2018

Celtic said:
The general musings on this thread seem to suggest Shane resigned from Mosconi Cup competition.

I read the posting from SVB and he was 100% still willing to play in the Mosconi Cup and actually stated he hoped to still be included on the team, he was simply unwilling to do the "boot camp".

And so... now the best player in the USA without any real argument is off the USA Mosconi Cup team?

If I were Matchroom I would be pretty careful about this move. After many years of the USA already being outclassed because of the lack of true world class and battle hardened players who travel the world and play against the best of the best in world championships their answer to this was.... to remove the only player in the USA who actually plays full time professional pool and players in the world championships against the world best on a regular basis?

I am not sure Matchroom... now you have a bunch of part time USA players who rarely leave the USA and you are putting them up against world class pros? The USA team is now pretty much set at being regional very strong amateurs and 3/4 retired former pros. Is this really going to help the product you are trying to sell?

The Mosconi Cup needs to be the best of each area, and it needs to be competitive.

You just removed the hardest working player from the USA, the guy who travels the world to play the best of the best FAR more than any other player in the USA and puts himself in there against the worlds best. You did that because he would not do a "boot camp" with the other USA players who do not come even close to putting the same amount of commitment to the game as he does...

Think about that. Is that really the right move? SVB has lived boot camp the last 20 years. The problem with the last 10 years of the Mosconi Cup is that not another player from the USA has.

Try to see this from SVB's eyes, he is the only guy in the USA truly committed to the game for a very long time now, and he is being asked to do "boot camp" with a bunch of players who simply do not commit themselves to the sport like he does each and every year. Not sure he is wrong here for thinking that is wrong.

Yes, unless something has changed very recently Shane would still like to be on the team and have a chance at redemption. This year he had one or more prior sponsor commitments that conflicted with the boot camp(s). Unfortunately, I don't believe there was good communication with the players before the boot camp dates were set. As mentioned earlier in this thread there were also other players that weren't put on the list because they couldn't commit to all of the boot camps.

One other thing of note, a few years back Shane was doing well on the WPA points list and sitting around 2nd place in the point standings before the last event of the year which was in Japan. Mathematically and based on who was attending that year if Shane went to Japan and placed in the top 50% of the field he would secure enough points to finish with the #1 WPA ranking. Mark Wilson, that years coach, was holding a boot camp in St Louis which Shane would have missed the first day of if he played the Japan Open. Shane skipped the Japan and possible world #1 ranking to attend the boot camp.

ribdoner · Jun 27, 2018

lorider said:
Are you saying the previous pros lacked killer instinct ?

No offense to donny but didn't he just get beat by a girl ?

Much more a MONSTER than a girl

TONS the best gal i've seen to include BALUKAS, ALLIE in her prime, etc., etc., etc

SHE X 5 may win more points in the MOSCONI format than any team we assemble sans SHANE

Nostroke · Jun 28, 2018

billiards102 said:
. Shane skipped the Japan and possible world #1 ranking to attend the boot camp.

And Boy did that pay off!

sjm · Jun 28, 2018

Celtic said:
The general musings on this thread seem to suggest Shane resigned from Mosconi Cup competition.

I read the posting from SVB and he was 100% still willing to play in the Mosconi Cup and actually stated he hoped to still be included on the team, he was simply unwilling to do the "boot camp".

It can still be argued that, by his actions, Shane did resign from MC competition.

Look at it from the vantage point of Matchroom for a moment. The Mosconi has been dominated by Europe, which has won eight in a row. In recent years, it hasn't even been competitive, as the US has failed to win a single day of competition since 2012.

Matchroom and the US coaching staff, by creating a vast training program, are trying to offer Team USA aspirants a vehicle for closing the competitive gap between them and Europe, which is huge right now.

Why shouldn't they all take a dim view of those who choose not to take advantage of this vehicle to help American players add to their pedigrees?

Like you, I am disappointed by the fact that SVB won't be on the team, but I fully understand the decision to omit him.

Fear not, Matchroom will make the 2018 Mosconi Cup a great event. Nobody understands how to make pool exciting more than Matchroom.

Tin Man · Jun 28, 2018

Europe hasn't become dominant because of team building boot camps. I believe in practice but world class pool can't be achieved in a few weeks in a lab. It has been due to international competition.

If the US Players are missing out on opportunities for international competition, make the mosconi cup invite contingent on playing 3 international events year to date. The boot camps seem extremely controlling, condescending, and ineffective. Like corporate action plans that look good on paper, someone can proudly show what we are doing to turn the ship around. Great talking points, but utterly pointless.

sjm · Jun 28, 2018

Tin Man said:
If the US Players are missing out on opportunities for international competition, make the mosconi cup invite contingent on playing 3 international events year to date.

I love this idea. There's absolutely no question that the gradual disappearance of world class pool among American pros has more to do with the fact that American pros haven't played the international events than the absence of "boot camp" type training. Unfortunately, years of absence in so may of the top international events has created a Catch 22 for many of them --- few of them play well enough to make financial ends meet when travelling overseas.

By comparison, most of the big names in Europe come to play in the US Open every year, and many of those who are Europe-based compete frequently in the United States.

nine_ball6970 · Jun 28, 2018

sjm said:
I love this idea. There's absolutely no question that the gradual disappearance of world class pool among American pros has more to do with the fact that American pros haven't played the international events than the absence of "boot camp" type training. Unfortunately, years of absence in so may of the top international events has created a Catch 22 for many of them --- few of them play well enough to make financial ends meet when travelling overseas.

By comparison, most of the big names in Europe come to play in the US Open every year, and many of those who are Europe-based compete frequently in the United States.

Personally I feel that the Americans get by on raw talent while the Europeans get every last ounce out of their games by becoming as technically sound mechanically as they can be. They just make less errors in the short races. Americans have flashes of brilliance and then do things that make you scratch your head.

USA might win if Europe fielded a Junior team. That team would include Kaci, Filler, Gorst etc though so I am still not so sure.

Kid Dynomite · Jun 28, 2018

sjm said:
I love this idea. There's absolutely no question that the gradual disappearance of world class pool among American pros has more to do with the fact that American pros haven't played the international events than the absence of "boot camp" type training. Unfortunately, years of absence in so may of the top international events has created a Catch 22 for many of them --- few of them play well enough to make financial ends meet when travelling overseas.

By comparison, most of the big names in Europe come to play in the US Open every year, and many of those who are Europe-based compete frequently in the United States.

Only problem is cost and funding!

It ain't cheap and sponsors are limited! Why not matchroom sponsor a few trips and players???

Kd

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

sjm · Jun 28, 2018

nine_ball6970 said:
They just make less errors in the short races. Americans have flashes of brilliance and then do things that make you scratch your head.

Surely you jest. The length of race has not made any difference of late in rotation pool. Europe is every bit as dominating when the races are long.

1) At the last US Open 9-ball, races to 11, the Europeans swept the top three spots with Shaw, Kaci and Sanchez Ruiz.

2) At the last Ocean States 9-ball Championship, races to nine, Alex Kazakis of Greece topped them all.

3) At the Derby City 9-ball, races to nine, Englishman Chris Melling beat them all to win the title, knocking off Canadian John Morra in the final.

4) At the World Pool Series 9-ball, with long races, the champion was Estonia's Dennis Grabe, followed by Alex Kazakis of Greece.

5) At the World Pool Series 10-ball, with long races, the champion was Joshua Filler of Germany who beat Alex Kazakis of Greece in the final.

6) At the Beardsley Open a couple of weeks ago in North Carolina, with long races, Alex Kazakis of Greece was the champion, beating Alex Pagulayan of Canada in the final.

The Europeans are kicking butt every bit as much in rotation pool events having long races, and every one of the above events was on American soil.

Right now, short races are America's only shot at beating Europe, and as we've seen, so far it hasn't been enough.

jay helfert · Jun 29, 2018

sjm said:
Surely you jest. The length of race has not made any difference of late in rotation pool. Europe is every bit as dominating when the races are long.

1) At the last US Open 9-ball, races to 11, the Europeans swept the top three spots with Shaw, Kaci and Sanchez Ruiz.

2) At the last Ocean States 9-ball Championship, races to nine, Alex Kazakis of Greece topped them all.

3) At the Derby City 9-ball, races to nine, Englishman Chris Melling beat them all to win the title, knocking off Canadian John Morra in the final.

4) At the World Pool Series 9-ball, with long races, the champion was Estonia's Dennis Grabe, followed by Alex Kazakis of Greece.

5) At the World Pool Series 10-ball, with long races, the champion was Joshua Filler of Germany who beat Alex Kazakis of Greece in the final.

6) At the Beardsley Open a couple of weeks ago in North Carolina, with long races, Alex Kazakis of Greece was the champion, beating Alex Pagulayan of Canada in the final.

The Europeans are kicking butt every bit as much in rotation pool events having long races, and every one of the above events was on American soil.

Right now, short races are America's only shot at beating Europe, and as we've seen, so far it hasn't been enough.

Good point here Stu. I see so many people complaining about the short races in the MC, but in actuality this favors the USA squad. The weaker player will always have a better chance in a short race. The longer the race, the more it favors the stronger player. That has been an axiom in Pool for eons.

nine_ball6970 · Jun 29, 2018

jay helfert said:
Good point here Stu. I see so many people complaining about the short races in the MC, but in actuality this favors the USA squad. The weaker player will always have a better chance in a short race. The longer the race, the more it favors the stronger player. That has been an axiom in Pool for eons.

The weaker player has a better chance in short races which are winner break. In an alternate break format, the better player will realize their edge more often. Stronger player wins their break more often and is able to capitalize when the weaker player makes a mistake on their own break.

The best player in my area wins a local alternate break tournament probably 95% of the time. There are a handful of players who are not far below him but he basically always wins because of fewer mistakes on average.

lfigueroa · Jun 29, 2018

nine_ball6970 said:
Personally I feel that the Americans get by on raw talent while the Europeans get every last ounce out of their games by becoming as technically sound mechanically as they can be. They just make less errors in the short races. Americans have flashes of brilliance and then do things that make you scratch your head.

USA might win if Europe fielded a Junior team. That team would include Kaci, Filler, Gorst etc though so I am still not so sure.

Gotta agree.

The difference has been that the US squad seems to make unforced, dumb mistakes, like letting the CB come off a shot and go two rails for a scratch. The European squad dan't do that.

Lou Figueroa

mikepage · Jun 29, 2018

Tin Man said:
Europe hasn't become dominant because of team building boot camps. I believe in practice but world class pool can't be achieved in a few weeks in a lab. It has been due to international competition.

If the US Players are missing out on opportunities for international competition, make the mosconi cup invite contingent on playing 3 international events year to date. The boot camps seem extremely controlling, condescending, and ineffective. Like corporate action plans that look good on paper, someone can proudly show what we are doing to turn the ship around. Great talking points, but utterly pointless.

I like the way you think. Pool in USA NEEDS its top players participating in top competitions. There is something definitely broken there.

But before we look for answers as to why Europe wins the Mosconi Cup--(whether your favorite answer is better boot camps or more international-competition experience...) we should go back to the question. The presumption in finding these reasons is that we (USA) have some anomalous result (losing over and over again) that demands explanation.

This is just not true. Below are two plots. And I've purposefully left off the labels. One plot is the number of people in the 27 EU countries (that's 500 million) versus the number of people in the USA (325 million). The second chart is the number of players from the EU countries that play over 740 speed (66) vs the number of players in the USA who play over 740 speed (42). Stare at these for a bit. If these charts look alike, there is nothing really to explain. There is no reason to say, "...ahah! USA eats Cheerios for breakfast and Europe eats Honeynut Cheerios....That's it!"

If top US players had support to attend international competitions, the experience might inspire some of them to set their sights higher and work even harder. It also might inspire players the next tier down to work toward getting that invitation. All of this would get us--the fans--a little more juiced up, and that has a ripple effect that impacts the number of people talking about pool, playing in local events and playing in leagues and buying stuff. So yes, this kind of support is super important. FargoRate has some plans along these lines.

I spoke to SVB for a while a few months ago about his views on the Mosconi Cup and the required commitments and the like--a few weeks before he put out his facebook post on the subject. He said something else in that conversation that got my attention. We are all hoping some of our younger players put a priority on international travel and play, and we often look at economic issues as being the main problem (there is no financial support to send them and the expected return in a world-class competition is negative for them). This is all true and a serious problem. But it's not the only problem. Another problem is some of our younger players are far from being sophisticated travelers. They couldn't whip out a credit card and book a domestic flight. And they certainly don't know what is required to arrange international travel, what mechanism to use to pay, what to expect in the other country, how to deal with currency, with language, and so forth. This has got to be intimidating. Shane said he himself has basically made arrangements for others. I think we should not underestimate or make light of the barrier here.

Again, FargoRate is looking into ways to deal with the economic part of facilitating travel for our players as well as ways to tap into collective wisdom and goodwill within our community to reduce the non-economic barriers.

One thing I like about the boot camps is it gets our top players to know one another and forge bonds that maybe come into play later. With our absence of structure in pool, anything that brings people together is a particularly good thing. Matchroom will no-doubt have another exciting event.

nine_ball6970 · Jun 29, 2018

mikepage said:
I like the way you think. Pool in USA NEEDS its top players participating in top competitions. There is something definitely broken there.

But before we look for answers as to why Europe wins the Mosconi Cup--(whether your favorite answer is better boot camps or more international-competition experience...) we should go back to the question. The presumption in finding these reasons is that we (USA) have some anomalous result (losing over and over again) that demands explanation.

This is just not true. Below are two plots. And I've purposefully left off the labels. One plot is the number of people in the 27 EU countries (that's 500 million) versus the number of people in the USA (325 million). The second chart is the number of players from the EU countries that play over 740 speed (66) vs the number of players in the USA who play over 740 speed (42). Stare at these for a bit. If these charts look alike, there is nothing really to explain. There is no reason to say, "...ahah! USA eats Cheerios for breakfast and Europe eats Honeynut Cheerios....That's it!"

If top US players had support to attend international competitions, the experience might inspire some of them to set their sights higher and work even harder. It also might inspire players the next tier down to work toward getting that invitation. All of this would get us--the fans--a little more juiced up, and that has a ripple effect that impacts the number of people talking about pool, playing in local events and playing in leagues and buying stuff. So yes, this kind of support is super important. FargoRate has some plans along these lines.

I spoke to SVB for a while a few months ago about his views on the Mosconi Cup and the required commitments and the like--a few weeks before he put out his facebook post on the subject. He said something else in that conversation that got my attention. We are all hoping some of our younger players put a priority on international travel and play, and we often look at economic issues as being the main problem (there is no financial support to send them and the expected return in a world-class competition is negative for them). This is all true and a serious problem. But it's not the only problem. Another problem is some of our younger players are far from being sophisticated travelers. They couldn't whip out a credit card and book a domestic flight. And they certainly don't know what is required to arrange international travel, what mechanism to use to pay, what to expect in the other country, how to deal with currency, with language, and so forth. This has got to be intimidating. Shane said he himself has basically made arrangements for others. I think we should not underestimate or make light of the barrier here.

Again, FargoRate is looking into ways to deal with the economic part of facilitating travel for our players as well as ways to tap into collective wisdom and goodwill within our community to reduce the non-economic barriers.

One thing I like about the boot camps is it gets our top players to know one another and forge bonds that maybe come into play later. With our absence of structure in pool, anything that brings people together is a particularly good thing. Matchroom will no-doubt have another exciting event.

I always enjoy your posts and analysis. I am not sure how you arrived at the 740 number but it seems to me someone would need to be 780+ to be competitive in a Mosconi Cup. We might have 5 in the US while Europe has dozens?

mikepage · Jun 29, 2018

nine_ball6970 said:
I always enjoy your posts and analysis. I am not sure how you arrived at the 740 number but it seems to me someone would need to be 780+ to be competitive in a Mosconi Cup. We might have 5 in the US while Europe has dozens?

I was trying to pick a number high enough that we're pretty sure we have nearly all the players on our radar and low enough that we get some good statistics.

You're right. If we make that cutoff 770, then USA has 11 and EU had 26.

USA would be expected to have 16 or 17 rather than 11 by population.

sjm · Jun 29, 2018

mikepage said:
I was trying to pick a number high enough that we're pretty sure we have nearly all the players on our radar and low enough that we get some good statistics.

You're right. If we make that cutoff 770, then USA has 11 and EU had 26.

USA would be expected to have 16 or 17 rather than 11 by population.

Yes, but the US probably has 10 rotation games pool players to every one in Europe, so maybe we should have 260 such players if Europe has 26.

In a thread in the recent past, a couple of British posters estimated that the UK has only about 1,000 rotation game pool players. This is very believable to me, as I've visited numerous pool rooms in the UK over the years, and finding someone to play nine ball with is no easy task.

...and yet, in rotation pool, the UK has produced these five and more:

1) Darren Appleton, a world champion in 9-ball and 10-ball and US Open 9-ball champ

2) Jayson Shaw: Certainly top 5 in the world today and the reigning US Open 9-ball champion

3) Darryl Peach, who won the World 9-ball championship

4) Mark Gray, whose form has been rock solid in Mosconi Cups past.

5) Chris Melling, a Mosconi Cup world beater and the reigning Derby City 9-ball champion

It's not about population at all. Population is completely irrelevant. Given how many rotation game pool players there are in America, it's really hard to fathom how few are reaching the most elite levels of play.

Initial team usa squad is named for mosconi cup xxv

C'mon, man!

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