Simple patterns

Sealegs50

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In this particular setup, I expect that many lower level players would play the four first. This isn't necessarily because they don't see the better pattern, but because they get nervous when the path to the pocket requires that the OB pass relatively close to another ball.

In your scenario, you didn't show where the opponent's balls are, or where the eight is. I can think of many scenarios in which I would play the 4,7,3...it is an extremely easy pattern, depending on obstacles.

I agree with your first point. Immediately after that game, I pointed out to him what shot order I thought he should have taken and why. I suggested practicing the shot for the very reason you mentioned, so he could become comfortable with it. Do I think he remembered my suggestion and practiced the shot? Not really.

I did not videotape the match. But from my recollection while there were a lot of balls on the table at the time, the scenario was as straightforward as shown in the picture. My picture was only provided to illustrate the level of simplicity I wanted in these patterns. There will be other tactics to add to his skill set later that would enhance his play. But for now, I would be happy with modest expansion of his skills. He looks at every situation as a blank slate. When there is a full table of balls, he cannot readily grasp his key issues and set a strategy. He spends so much time thinking about every possibility for shooting his seven object balls, that he has no time left on the clock to think about making the shot.

Thanks for your comments. I really appreciate the responses.
 

PoppaSaun

Banned
Some players not only can't do short stop shots fairly consistently but don't even know that such shots exist. The priorities for players like that is to develop a consistent stroke, learn how to aim (a gradual process), and develop a little speed control.

It's fine to point out some examples to such players where picking the right order of shots is useful, but if the cue ball keeps ending up two or three feet from where intended because of lack of speed control, spending a lot of time working on patterns is not useful. It is better to spend the time on developing the skills necessary to do two-ball "patterns".

I saw a good example of overkill on pattern discussion in a league match. The APA 3 was facing a not so hard table with all balls close to pockets but they seemed perplexed. The coach (a 5?) called a time out and proceeded to explain the out in detail, using draw and little right off the 3 to come over to the rail there for the 7 and a little follow for the 6. The shooter missed the hanger 3.

I think an instructor has to work on the student's most limiting weaknesses first.

Your example isn't an instruction example, it is a coaching example. What the almighty 5 did was possibly a case of the right information at the wrong time. One should coach to the players ability, one should instruct above the players ability.

When you work on a players weakness there should be an explanation of why you are working on that, or you are simply shoving a bunch of information down some poor student's throat.

If, on the other hand, you set up a pattern while teaching skills, the player will understand the importance of the skill. For instance, if you want to teach someone stop shots, set up a real world example of when a stop shot is the best way to play a pattern.

I'm no certified instructor, but I've seen people who had few skills improve very quickly just by going through their patterns with them after they screw up.

It isn't enough to teach the 'how', one needs to teach the 'why' at the same time.
 

Skippy27

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Maybe when I can consistently run more than two racks in 14.1, I'll feel more comfortable trying to teach novice players.

Being able to do and teach are 2 totally different skill sets.

There are many that can teach but can't do and there are just as many that can do, but can't teach.
 

PoppaSaun

Banned
Do I think he remembered my suggestion and practiced the shot? Not really.

This is exactly where this thread needs to end. If you want him to improve, you can give him every book, videos and explanations of patterns, etc..

If he wants to improve, he will ask for all of that.
 

PoppaSaun

Banned
Being able to do and teach are 2 totally different skill sets.

There are many that can teach but can't do and there are just as many that can do, but can't teach.

Being able and willing to learn massively increases the number of teachers one has.
 

Skippy27

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Your example isn't an instruction example, it is a coaching example. What the almighty 5 did was possibly a case of the right information at the wrong time. One should coach to the players ability, one should instruct above the players ability.

When you work on a players weakness there should be an explanation of why you are working on that, or you are simply shoving a bunch of information down some poor student's throat.

If, on the other hand, you set up a pattern while teaching skills, the player will understand the importance of the skill. For instance, if you want to teach someone stop shots, set up a real world example of when a stop shot is the best way to play a pattern.

I'm no certified instructor, but I've seen people who had few skills improve very quickly just by going through their patterns with them after they screw up.

It isn't enough to teach the 'how', one needs to teach the 'why' at the same time.

I am not sure why you are arguing with Bob. His advise is dead on.

If the shooter isn't capable of doing the simple things (stop, draw, follow) correctly and consistently then moving on to more advance things like pattern play is not only a big waste of time, but it will frustrate the player trying to learn. You teach to the players level, not your agenda.

FYI, coaching lower level players is 100% teaching.
 

Sealegs50

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Some players not only can't do short stop shots fairly consistently but don't even know that such shots exist. The priorities for players like that is to develop a consistent stroke, learn how to aim (a gradual process), and develop a little speed control.

It's fine to point out some examples to such players where picking the right order of shots is useful, but if the cue ball keeps ending up two or three feet from where intended because of lack of speed control, spending a lot of time working on patterns is not useful. It is better to spend the time on developing the skills necessary to do two-ball "patterns".

I saw a good example of overkill on pattern discussion in a league match. The APA 3 was facing a not so hard table with all balls close to pockets but they seemed perplexed. The coach (a 5?) called a time out and proceeded to explain the out in detail, using draw and little right off the 3 to come over to the rail there for the 7 and a little follow for the 6. The shooter missed the hanger 3.

I think an instructor has to work on the student's most limiting weaknesses first.

You pointed out one of the patterns I think novice players should learn. Two or three balls fairly close together in the center of the table along the line of the head and foot spots. In a game facing a similar situation, a level 3 player (sometimes even a level or two higher) will often try to shoot them with draw even though draw shots make them nervous wrecks. Even though I am comfortable with position play using draw, in a game, I shoot as much as I can using soft, natural follow.
 

PoppaSaun

Banned
I am not sure why you are arguing with Bob. His advise is dead on.

If the shooter isn't capable of doing the simple things (stop, draw, follow) correctly and consistently then moving on to more advance things like pattern play is not only a big waste of time, but it will frustrate the player trying to learn. You teach to the players level, not your agenda.

FYI, coaching lower level players is 100% teaching.

Coaching during a competition is not instructing.

I really can't believe that anyone thinks that learning is compartmentalized. What you and bob are arguing is the same as saying until someone knows the entire dictionary, they shouldn't be taught how to construct a sentence. I'm not saying that you neglect teaching the necessary skills, I'm saying that you teach both together. Obviously you start with very basic patterns that utilize easier skills, but you present both at the same time because the two skills are complimentary and reinforce each other.

If someone learns why they are shooting a stop shot while learning to shoot a stop shot, he is going to be more engaged and master the stop shot quicker than if he just hit stop shots. This is because he can look at the next shot (in the pattern) and have immediate feedback because he will either be left with an easy shot or he won't.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't think it is right to shoot the 3 first...and it wouldn't be wrong either. Virtually no difference between the 2 options, imo.

As others said, 'patterns' teaching is a bit premature, given skill level at hand.

I agree and think what I am looking for is basic. But rather than only teaching stop, follow, draw, left, right, my hope was that practicing a few simple two ball position drills would cement them in their minds as basic skills. The attached picture highlights the situation that stimulated me to post.

In the set up, the player was faced with the following 3 balls. Just as his time was expiring, he bent down and shot the 4-ball. He made the shot and walked the ball forward a bit for a good shot on the 7. But the 3-ball was still sitting on the rail to be handled later, which he never got the chance. When I see two balls near a rail like the 3 and 4 in this picture, I think of them as a single unit. Hit the 3 first lightly with a little backspin and the cue ball comes back up the the same line it sits on now. From my perspective, the 3-ball is a free ball. Easy to pocket and easy to set up for the 4. He sees the the 3 as just another ball on the table to be handled whenever he gets the chance. I can think of other common positions that might be worth adding to practice sessions.

Thanks to the responders for your comments. When I get the chance, I will check out the suggestions. Maybe I will start compiling my own set-ups.
 

fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
That is utterly ridiculous. To hear an instructor say that there is no reason to develop pattern recognition until they have the skills to pull it off is asinine. Learning is not that compartmentalized. Toddlers will try to run before they can reliably walk.

I contend that pattern recognition is exactly why a person would spend time learning how to stop, follow, and draw.

A waste of time to discuss more advanced plays...wow...from an instructor...craptacular.

Why would you have a player working on pattern play when the player cant get the cue ball where it needs to be. Until you have a decent stroke and can pull off at least all of the center cue ball shots consistently working on patterns is completely useless. Its probably worse to have players working on patterns before they are adept at all of the center ball shots because once they get good at them they will find that their previous pattern experience gave them incorrect info on cue ball positioning. I have seen my fair share of weekly players that still cant play a long follow shot without a lot of speed because they dont hit the shot well after many years of playing. Too many people think good practice is just playing the ghost or going to a bar and keeping the table for an hour instead of working on some of your weaknesses. There have been times I have spent 45 minutes to an hour just tapping the cue ball and one object ball up and down the rail an inch at a time for safety practice, if you dont practice a shot like that how do you know how to hit it?
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
The Billiard University material has some patterns to solve. ...

There are some patterns to solve in http://www.sfbilliards.com/Misc/EIGHTBALL.pdf

Here are some example from that handout. You have stripes, cue ball in hand, and there are no solids left for these two sets.

You can shoot 1A without a cushion. It's not clear that is the best way for beginners.

CropperCapture[57].png
 

PoppaSaun

Banned
Why would you have a player working on pattern play when the player cant get the cue ball where it needs to be. Until you have a decent stroke and can pull off at least all of the center cue ball shots consistently working on patterns is completely useless. Its probably worse to have players working on patterns before they are adept at all of the center ball shots because once they get good at them they will find that their previous pattern experience gave them incorrect info on cue ball positioning. I have seen my fair share of weekly players that still cant play a long follow shot without a lot of speed because they dont hit the shot well after many years of playing. Too many people think good practice is just playing the ghost or going to a bar and keeping the table for an hour instead of working on some of your weaknesses. There have been times I have spent 45 minutes to an hour just tapping the cue ball and one object ball up and down the rail an inch at a time for safety practice, if you dont practice a shot like that how do you know how to hit it?

I have them work on both at the same time, just like I said. You work on both because one is the question and the other is the answer.

How can you people not understand this? I'm not saying that I'd teach advanced pattern play to an inept person, I'm saying that while I am teaching stop shots, I would set up patterns that utilize stop shots and explain why they use stop shots. The lesson is on stop shots, but the reinforcement and the goal of the lesson is to run a pattern using stop shots.

Then, while this person is learning stop shots, he would also be learning to recognize patterns that use stop shots.
 
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dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Is there a book (or just a few chapters of a book) that teaches less experienced players some basic 2 object ball patterns to practice which could elevate their games substantially?
All of the important basics are covered with many online videos and other resources on the pattern play resource page.

Exam II of the Billiards University (BU) Playing Ability Exams includes many practice patterns, and the BU instructional DVD series shows the best ways to solve all of them.

The Video Encyclopedia of Eight Ball (VEEB) and the Video Encyclopedia of Nine-ball and Ten-ball (VENT) cover pattern play concepts and show many important game-situation examples for every conceivable position play and for many common patterns.

Enjoy,
Dave
 

Sealegs50

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Being able to do and teach are 2 totally different skill sets.

There are many that can teach but can't do and there are just as many that can do, but can't teach.

Not sure I can do or teach. Unfortunately, I may be all this player has right now. :(
 

strmanglr scott

All about Focus
Silver Member
Pattern play relies on a players ability to pocket shots and control the cb.

The route one player sees is not always what's best for another.

Patterns come to me off of the leaves I can get off the shot easily. I don't see patterns in other words I see shots and the natural leave they produce w a stun shot.

That's why I say start w a simple shot. Put the ob a couple inches off of a pocket, then make the shot and learn to put the cb everywhere on the table.
 

buckets

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Maybe instead of learning patterns your player should learn routes. It's hard to put the entire pattern together if you don't understand 1, 2 and 3 rail routes.

Someone here mentioned that the same shots come up over and over again. Learn them and the patterns kind of build themselves.


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums

I'd definitely agree with this. It's hard to see patterns when you don't know where you can send your cueball from a given position.
 
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