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BRussell
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03-18-2019, 11:45 AM

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Originally Posted by nine_ball6970 View Post
You don't necessarily have to lose tournament matches to keep your rating down. A player could still win matches vs weaker players and keep the score close. Fargo says you are twice as good as your opponent. You play a race to 7 and go up 6-1. You lose 5 in a row and then win hill hill. Your rating would go down some and theirs would go up. Fargo says based on that match you two are close in skill when in actuality the gap might be bigger than two to one.

Player might have a decent rating but not up where it would be if they played full speed every game of every match.
Sure, but if you want to lower your rating you're going to really want to lose to those weaker players. Otherwise you're not going to decrease that much.

I wonder what would happen to a 700 who enters a weekly tournament with a bunch of 400s, and beats them all by 1 game. So now they've won, say 30 games against 400s but lost 25. That could do some damage to the rating.
  
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03-18-2019, 11:52 AM

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Originally Posted by hang-the-9 View Post
Handicaps in sports is like Communism and Socialism. Good ideas as long as everyone is honest and fair.
Ummmm...you can add capitalism to that list too.
  
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03-18-2019, 11:53 AM

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Originally Posted by BRussell View Post
Sure, but if you want to lower your rating you're going to really want to lose to those weaker players. Otherwise you're not going to decrease that much.

I wonder what would happen to a 700 who enters a weekly tournament with a bunch of 400s, and beats them all by 1 game. So now they've won, say 30 games against 400s but lost 25. That could do some damage to the rating.
Just giving an example because people keep talking about going two and out every week.

How many games a player has in the system would make a difference in how much rating is impacted.
  
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hang-the-9
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03-18-2019, 12:11 PM

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Originally Posted by sbpoolleague View Post
Ummmm...you can add capitalism to that list too.
Yes but capitalism as it's own thing creates inequality by it's nature, which may or may not be fair to society overall. Is having less stuff but everyone shares more equally worse or better than having some people buying $100,000 cars and watches they don't need at all and having homeless and hungry kids?


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03-18-2019, 12:21 PM

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Originally Posted by sbpoolleague View Post
Ummmm...you can add capitalism to that list too.
We have to wait for a country to try it first.


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03-18-2019, 12:56 PM

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Originally Posted by nine_ball6970 View Post
I am not sure why these tournaments allow unestablished players to play in tournaments using Fargo. Minimum 200 games and that will solve most of the problems.
Simple: 2/3 of the players are unestablished. No business can disenfranchise 2/3 of its customer base. However, one would think switching to an established-only format would see a whole bunch of players suddenly become established.
  
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03-18-2019, 01:08 PM

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Originally Posted by BRussell View Post
I think Mike Page makes a pretty good argument that the tournaments you dump in will not get many games in the system. If you lose a lot, you'll be out quickly, and you won't have played a lot of games. You'd need to lose your money in a whole lot of low-stakes tournaments to really decrease your rating significantly for the one big tournament.

And then you'd probably be able to do it only once, because all the games from the tournament you won would get in the system, and there would be a lot of them because you'd have beaten so many people to win the tournament. It doesn't really seem financially smart, let alone the fact that it wouldn't be very much fun to lose badly in 10 tournaments in order to win one.
Yes, but the conversation about sandbagging is off point. The issue here is un-established players entering tournaments with artificially low ratings because of an incorrect (or dishonest) low starter rating. Un-established players should play at the higher of their starter rating or actual games logged so far. If they are allowed in at all.
  
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03-18-2019, 01:17 PM

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Originally Posted by SWRLE View Post
Simple: 2/3 of the players are unestablished. No business can disenfranchise 2/3 of its customer base. However, one would think switching to an established-only format would see a whole bunch of players suddenly become established.
All of the leagues have some type on qualification that needs to be met to participate. Whether it be 10 matches played in the last year or whatever. I do agree that more people would get the required games if they needed them to play in these tournaments.

It is almost like these are advertised as fargo tournaments and having a rating is merely a suggestion.

if you want a ratingand do not have one, ask your tournament director to put the weekly bracket into challonge. It really isn't that hard to do. That is starting to happen more often here. The league I play in uses ball spots so cant use it to get a rating.
  
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03-18-2019, 01:33 PM

Adding some data to this thread. Winners current fargo info. May have been different when they registered.

Bronze 2. Fargo 391 robust 154
Bronze 1 Fargo 466 robust 96
Silver 2. Fargo 519 robust 165
Silver 1. Fargo 516 robust 285
Gold. Fargo 571 robust 384
Platinum Fargo 683 robust 209. < ???
Elite. Fargo 708 robust 1887

Last edited by misterpoole; 03-18-2019 at 01:49 PM.
  
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BRussell
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03-18-2019, 02:15 PM

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Originally Posted by SWRLE View Post
Yes, but the conversation about sandbagging is off point. The issue here is un-established players entering tournaments with artificially low ratings because of an incorrect (or dishonest) low starter rating. Un-established players should play at the higher of their starter rating or actual games logged so far. If they are allowed in at all.
It could just result from natural error. Mike Page said that unestablished players are not, on average, winning more than established players. Maybe it looks something like this: Half of all unestablished players are within 25 points of their true rating. 90% are within 75 points. But maybe 5% are underrated by 100 points and 5% are overrated by 100. Those 5% who are underrated by 100 are going to win or place very high in their divisions. Weíre just going to forget about everyone else.
  
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03-18-2019, 02:23 PM

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Originally Posted by JC View Post
Has pulled it off again this year just like last year against all odds and won 4 of the 6 singles divisions at the Western BCA 8 ball championships.

Sandbaggers are as resilient as cockroaches it seems.

JC
Last tournament I attended went like this:

I walk in, go to bar and say I want to play in tournament. Fellow comes up and asks if I'm a league player. I said no. He ask if I have a Fargo rating. I said no. He said, wel, since we dont know you, I'll put you in as a 7.

I told him I felt that was to low. He said naw, it'll be fine. Well, lol.... it wasn't fine. I felt like I was stealing.

In that type situation, I was honest but it did no good and players i can spot the last 3/4 balls were forced to give me games on wire.

As one could expect, I won the tournament but I did split my winnings with the 2nd thru 5th place after taking my expenses out.

After I did that, folks stop giving me the stink eye and actually invited me back.

If they treat everyone the way they did me, I can understand how they could be robbed on a regular basis.

The average player there is a BCA 5 to 7 in nine ball.


I knew a fellow that thought he was a good boxer because he was in a position to befriend a lot of "professional boxers". It cost him azzwhippens till he realized he wasn't what he thought/wished he was.

Do you know anyone like the "wannabe" boxer in the pool world?
  
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sixpack
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03-18-2019, 02:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrctherake View Post
Last tournament I attended went like this:

I walk in, go to bar and say I want to play in tournament. Fellow comes up and asks if I'm a league player. I said no. He ask if I have a Fargo rating. I said no. He said, wel, since we dont know you, I'll put you in as a 7.

I told him I felt that was to low. He said naw, it'll be fine. Well, lol.... it wasn't fine. I felt like I was stealing.

In that type situation, I was honest but it did no good and players i can spot the last 3/4 balls were forced to give me games on wire.

As one could expect, I won the tournament but I did split my winnings with the 2nd thru 5th place after taking my expenses out.

After I did that, folks stop giving me the stink eye and actually invited me back.

If they treat everyone the way they did me, I can understand how they could be robbed on a regular basis.

The average player there is a BCA 5 to 7 in nine ball.
Iíve had the exact same experience. Once the TD actually told me ďSon, you ainít as good as you think you is.Ē I won. Everybody was pissed. Especially the TD who accused me of Ďsneaking iní lol. I practically begged him to make me a 9 (out of 11) and he made me a 4. I was probably really a high 8. So people my speed had to beat me 4-2.

I donít know why they donít just take strangers at their word if they say they are good.


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03-18-2019, 03:42 PM

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Originally Posted by sixpack View Post
Iíve had the exact same experience. Once the TD actually told me ďSon, you ainít as good as you think you is.Ē I won. Everybody was pissed. Especially the TD who accused me of Ďsneaking iní lol. I practically begged him to make me a 9 (out of 11) and he made me a 4. I was probably really a high 8. So people my speed had to beat me 4-2.

I donít know why they donít just take strangers at their word if they say they are good.
Very true. Some people dont like to admit it but, the fact is, there are plenty of unknowns that obviously aren't in Fargo and rarely leave their basement..... much less travel and play tournaments regular enough to be "known"..... that would be in low to mid 700's all day long.


I knew a fellow that thought he was a good boxer because he was in a position to befriend a lot of "professional boxers". It cost him azzwhippens till he realized he wasn't what he thought/wished he was.

Do you know anyone like the "wannabe" boxer in the pool world?
  
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BRussell
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03-18-2019, 04:57 PM

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Originally Posted by jrctherake View Post
Very true. Some people dont like to admit it but, the fact is, there are plenty of unknowns that obviously aren't in Fargo and rarely leave their basement..... much less travel and play tournaments regular enough to be "known"..... that would be in low to mid 700's all day long.
I seriously doubt there are too many people who only play in their basements and don’t play in tournaments and are low to mid 700s. Mid 700 is top 20 in the US lol.
  
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Dan Wolfe
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03-18-2019, 05:15 PM

I posted this on Facebook on the Western BCA Player's Group (Official) page in response to this thread...

Just thinking out loud here... I got home from the coast last night and was poking around on AZ billiards like most of us do. I noticed a post where someone pointed out that 4 of the 6 singles division winners were unestablished going into the event. I confirmed this by looking at each winner and checking their Fargo. Most interesting was Brad Gowin who was an unestablished 601 going into the event and won Platinum singles. It appears that singles data has already gone into FargoRate, and now Brad is an established 683. Perhaps it's time to consider requiring players to be established before entering larger events such as BCA Regionals & Nationals? Maybe have separate "Trophy" divisions or something for the unestablished players? I've already seen local tournaments with slightly larger payouts require that players be established before entering. I just think of it as a way to kind of "pay your dues" before you can go for the big bucks. Not mad... just sayin'...
  
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