unwanted english on break shot

Tin Man

Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Something has changed in my break shot. When I shoot without lifting up my body I can get between 16-18mph and generate good results. Cue ball pops back slightly off the rack with no spin, and it is hard enough to make balls and spread the rack when using a magic rack.

There are times I'd like to be able to go to my 20-22mph break shot, however, like when I'm playing 8 ball or paying 10 ball with a triangle rack. I used to be able to hit them ok, but lately I have been putting a ton of left spin on the cue ball. I am a right handed player. In this speed range I am lifting up my body so I can use my full arm as a lever and it seems to be something about how I lift that is causing me to hit off center. I am pretty sure my cue stick goes straight, but it seems my tip must be coming over a hair somehow.

My friend has the identical problem intermittently so I assume this is a known issue. What is the fix? I'm not going to just aim low right, that doesn't really solve the issue, just covers it with more variables.
 
L

longhorns2

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think this usually results from the elbow flying out almost like you're throwing a punch, because you're trying to get extra power. You can also bring your elbow back towards the body to get more power but the tip would tend to steer to the right.

I'd say you could either compensate on your alignment before the stroke, or just try to limit the elbow movement. I like to line up with my elbow tighter to my body than normal, and then when I start I let it fly out a little bit, and then as I'm raising up my body I snap it back towards my body.
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
If your tip is going left, then your backhand is going right. What would cause that? In normal shot strokes (not breaking) it's often a problem with the hip being in the way and the back hand unconsciously steering around it.

Another common cause is the elbow being not directly over the back hand and the back hand moving in a curve as a result.

pj
chgo
 
M

maha

from way back when
Silver Member
run the cue tip up and down the cue ball to ingrain in your mind just what is the vertical center of the cueball. you mind doesnt know.

slow your final back stroke down some at least until you get your stroke straightened out.
and in the break concentrate on snapping your wrist straight forward.
 
couldnthinkof01

couldnthinkof01

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I struggle with this for sure.
Not putting in much practice time these
days, so I haven't worked on it in a while.

When I am practicing this, I think of it
like hitting your driver in golf.
It's a full range body movement instead
of the typical statue style of the
normal stroke or a putt.
All amateurs and many pros struggle
with some kind of fade or draw when
hitting the driver.
Being smooth and delivering it straight
is honed through practice and video or
having a knowledgeable eye watching
to help you smooth it out.

Your a much better player than I am
and put in far more practice hours.
If you figure out the secret let us know.
 
Tin Man

Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Thank you for the quick and thoughtful replies! I figured it out and I'm almost embarrassed to explain what I was doing wrong. I have struggled with this for a few months now and it's so obvious, but it was hard to understand because I'm not very analytical with fundamentals.

So, it turns out my stroke is dead straight, my elbow doesn't move, and everything works pretty well. What happened is that about 3 months ago my game evolved a bit. It wasn't deliberate, it was organic. Up until then I always used ghost ball and sighted down the center of the cue to the center of the ghost ball. I would be aware of the contact point and would feel it, but I'd be lined up straight to the ghost ball. I am left eye dominant.

A few months ago I found my head shift further to the right, so my cue stick was even closer to being under my left eye. Not all the way, but close. I found myself migrating to some type of fractional ball aiming where I am now sighting down the side of the cue ball and aware of the overlap between the balls. My game has actually jumped up and I'm playing really strong right now. Thin cuts, back cuts, and other problem shots have become much more natural.

Somehow when I was breaking I was sighting the right edge of the cue ball to the middle of the 1 ball. I don't know how this could happen. I'd get in stance and I would think I was straight on the ball but my head was too far to the right and I was actually lined up to the left side of the one. When I would break my body would move in the direction I was looking, i.e. to the left. I would then put left spin on the ball. Due to deflection I'd end up hitting the rack on the right side with a ton of spin.

My first solve was to aim at the right edge of the 1 ball, sighting edge to edge. I made sure that when I lifted up I was moving in the direction of the right edge of the 1 ball. That solved it. Perfect pop and stop breaks with no spin. But it seemed awkward and hard to sight. So realizing the issue finally I just made an effort to sight the center of the cue ball to the center of the 1 ball. Now that I type this out it sounds so obvious I can't explain it. That felt more comfortable and now I'm breaking really strong.

Bottom line, I've only been using a fractional aiming for a couple of months. No one taught it to me, I don't use fractions. When I'm less than a 1/2 ball hit I just focus on overlap and sight down the edge. When I'm thicker I just aim at a spot on the ball that my brain tells me is right, so that's probably just feel or something. Not sure. But because this is all new to me it never really occurred that you could ever mess up something so simple and find yourself sighting down the wrong line. Now that I'm aware of it it's simple and obvious.

Bottom line, complicated game. But it's coming together. I'm ready for tournaments to start firing back up. I think it's about time for me to make a move. Thanks again gang!
 
Last edited:
o.g. (old guy)

o.g. (old guy)

mark
Silver Member
This happens to me as well, one thing that helped me is looking at the cb on the final stroke. Break shots and jumps are about the only times I do that.
 
OneArmed

OneArmed

the agony of billiards...
Silver Member
Your form is not right.
Haiku answers are the way.
Left spin, sinister!
 
Tin Man

Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Oh please, with your Haiku talk don’t begin. Iambic pentameter for the win.
 
fastone371

fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
Tin Man said:
Thank you for the quick and thoughtful replies! I figured it out and I'm almost embarrassed to explain what I was doing wrong. I have struggled with this for a few months now and it's so obvious, but it was hard to understand because I'm not very analytical with fundamentals.

So, it turns out my stroke is dead straight, my elbow doesn't move, and everything works pretty well. What happened is that about 3 months ago my game evolved a bit. It wasn't deliberate, it was organic. Up until then I always used ghost ball and sighted down the center of the cue to the center of the ghost ball. I would be aware of the contact point and would feel it, but I'd be lined up straight to the ghost ball. I am left eye dominant.

A few months ago I found my head shift further to the right, so my cue stick was even closer to being under my left eye. Not all the way, but close. I found myself migrating to some type of fractional ball aiming where I am now sighting down the side of the cue ball and aware of the overlap between the balls. My game has actually jumped up and I'm playing really strong right now. Thin cuts, back cuts, and other problem shots have become much more natural.

Somehow when I was breaking I was sighting the right edge of the cue ball to the middle of the 1 ball. I don't know how this could happen. I'd get in stance and I would think I was straight on the ball but my head was too far to the right and I was actually lined up to the left side of the one. When I would break my body would move in the direction I was looking, i.e. to the left. I would then put left spin on the ball. Due to deflection I'd end up hitting the rack on the right side with a ton of spin.

My first solve was to aim at the right edge of the 1 ball, sighting edge to edge. I made sure that when I lifted up I was moving in the direction of the right edge of the 1 ball. That solved it. Perfect pop and stop breaks with no spin. But it seemed awkward and hard to sight. So realizing the issue finally I just made an effort to sight the center of the cue ball to the center of the 1 ball. Now that I type this out it sounds so obvious I can't explain it. That felt more comfortable and now I'm breaking really strong.

Bottom line, I've only been using a fractional aiming for a couple of months. No one taught it to me, I don't use fractions. When I'm less than a 1/2 ball hit I just focus on overlap and sight down the edge. When I'm thicker I just aim at a spot on the ball that my brain tells me is right, so that's probably just feel or something. Not sure. But because this is all new to me it never really occurred that you could ever mess up something so simple and find yourself sighting down the wrong line. Now that I'm aware of it it's simple and obvious.

Bottom line, complicated game. But it's coming together. I'm ready for tournaments to start firing back up. I think it's about time for me to make a move. Thanks again gang!
Click to expand...

Once again, great info. Surprisingly my break is the 1 part of my game I dont have problems with other than I wish I could hit it 25-27 MPH. My wife also bought me a Break-Rak a few years ago. I set it up about once a month and practice with it for 30-45 minutes, it has helped tremendously with hitting the rack square and parking the cue ball center table (then watching it get kicked into a corner pocket while parked). When I think I might be having a stroke or alignment issues I will shoot long stop shots diagonally across my table, wouldnt this problem have showed up then if you had tried???

P.S. still hoping I can get up there to have you teach me some stuff in the future after we see how this virus crap plays out.
 
Gatz

Gatz

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
With magic racks and good equipment these days I don’t see the need for a whole lot of body movement and the use of a lot of speed.If you try to stay down on the break shot, follow all the way past the joint your body will naturally get up if your hitting it at a good speed. Keeping your bridge hand on the table i find is key too. I find this way to get the best result and very consistent.

Getting your body up before your cue starts going forward on its final swing generates a shit load of power but requires a crazy amount of accuracy and practice and I really don’t see the need for it. I even see Shane often hitting off centre and applying spin and I know hes not trying too. Thats just how hard it is to perfect that kind of style breaking technique.
 
Tin Man

Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
great question!

fastone371 said:
Once again, great info. Surprisingly my break is the 1 part of my game I dont have problems with other than I wish I could hit it 25-27 MPH. My wife also bought me a Break-Rak a few years ago. I set it up about once a month and practice with it for 30-45 minutes, it has helped tremendously with hitting the rack square and parking the cue ball center table (then watching it get kicked into a corner pocket while parked). When I think I might be having a stroke or alignment issues I will shoot long stop shots diagonally across my table, wouldnt this problem have showed up then if you had tried???

P.S. still hoping I can get up there to have you teach me some stuff in the future after we see how this virus crap plays out.
Click to expand...


This is a very great question! I'm not sure why I don't have this problem on normal straight shots. It's possible that I adjust my stance on the break a little and this kinked the way I get down on the ball causing me to lose my sight.

One thing I preach is the importance of seeing the shot standing up and keeping it all the way down to the shot. I call it the 'magic eye', like those 3d illusions where if you focus on a picture the right way a 3d image jumps off the page. If you blink or sneeze it's gone! You have to really stay zoned on that page for the image to remain. That's how I feel about seeing the shot. You have to see it standing up, then carefully lower on the shot. For some reason when I was getting down on the break shot I was losing the sighting line, probably again due to a change in stance to allow me to rise up on the break.

Oh, and yes, I know we never connected that time but I have your number and will keep in touch. You're in my backyard so it's only a matter of time! :)

As for other posters, yes, I agree that with a magic rack playing 10 ball you don't need to lunge at the balls. 17-18mph can be achieved with a good firm cue swing and no body movement. In fact I often prefer an open bridge. That said, there are times when it's nice to be able to generate more power. Most of today's elite players still use a break where their body lifts. Sometimes only a little, other times the whole way. Tyler Styer and Shane definitely use a body lift and they have set the bar for the break. If nothing else it allows them to swing more easily because it takes the pressure off their stroke. These are the guys I'm trying to compete with and I don't want to be at a disadvantage. I also play bar table 8 ball on slow tables at times, or use wood racks. I need all the tools.

It's like a jump shot. Yes, I play good patterns and cue ball, and I know how to kick. That doesn't mean there isn't a need for a good jump shot and situations that make that the right move.
 
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