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evergruven
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running english - 06-07-2020, 05:30 PM

until recently, I thought "running english" meant "top"
while reading, I somehow realized that this could not be
because top kills the cb going into the rail, right?

so are we talking just left or right? with a little top or no?
how do you define/explain "running english"?


A billiard table is that richest of metaphors,
by turns a theatre, an altar, touchstone, gauntlet,
ritual ground, a gunfighter's high noon, a refuge,
a verdant landscape for balls to scatter and rest in meaningful synchronicity,
a classroom, a karma dance, mirror of moods, a guide and trusted friend...

-- from grissim's "billiards"
  
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Bob Jewett
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06-07-2020, 05:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
... how do you define/explain "running english"?
It is sidespin that causes the cue ball to speed up when it hits the cushion at an angle (or at least not slow down as much as it would have without side spin).

If the cue ball goes straight into the cushion, I suppose you could call either side to be running english.

If you really want to learn more billiard vocabulary and terms (along with history and rules), get Mike Shamos' "New Illustrated Encyclopedia" which can be found for under $10 delivered to your door. It also has a lot of neat pictures.

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06-07-2020, 06:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
... If you really want to learn more billiard vocabulary and terms (along with history and rules), get Mike Shamos' "New Illustrated Encyclopedia" ...
Another good source for terms, phrases, and lingo is the Glossary on Dr. Dave's site: https://billiards.colostate.edu/glossary/#R

For running english, he has:
  • sidespin that causes the CB to speed up after bouncing off a rail, also resulting in a wider (longer) rebound angle. The spin is in the direction that results in “rolling” along the rail during contact.
  
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06-07-2020, 07:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
It is sidespin that causes the cue ball to speed up when it hits the cushion at an angle (or at least not slow down as much as it would have without side spin).

If the cue ball goes straight into the cushion, I suppose you could call either side to be running english.

If you really want to learn more billiard vocabulary and terms (along with history and rules), get Mike Shamos' "New Illustrated Encyclopedia" which can be found for under $10 delivered to your door. It also has a lot of neat pictures.

Attachment 550242
thanks bob
I like this part >>> "(or at least not slow down as much as it would have without side spin)."
coincidentally, I was digging around recently, and came across a post of yours referencing mike's writing re: "english" (no running)
will have to investigate his stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by AtLarge View Post
Another good source for terms, phrases, and lingo is the Glossary on Dr. Dave's site: https://billiards.colostate.edu/glossary/#R

For running english, he has:
  • sidespin that causes the CB to speed up after bouncing off a rail, also resulting in a wider (longer) rebound angle. The spin is in the direction that results in “rolling” along the rail during contact.
thanks AL
dr. dave's place has certainly been a well for me (and others, I'm sure)

and while perhaps simple enough to define
I'm curious if anybody has additional ideas about it
please chime in, if so


A billiard table is that richest of metaphors,
by turns a theatre, an altar, touchstone, gauntlet,
ritual ground, a gunfighter's high noon, a refuge,
a verdant landscape for balls to scatter and rest in meaningful synchronicity,
a classroom, a karma dance, mirror of moods, a guide and trusted friend...

-- from grissim's "billiards"
  
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06-07-2020, 07:22 PM

Simply inside English . Cutting right it would be right English . High ,middle or low depending on cut angle. Atleast that’s what I’ve always called running English


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06-07-2020, 07:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by peteypooldude View Post
Simply inside English
Inside English on the OB can be either “running” or “braking” English on the rail, depending on the carom angle into the rail.

The same terms can also describe the CB’s interaction with the OB: inside = “braking” and outside = “running “.

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06-07-2020, 08:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Inside English on the OB can be either “running” or “braking” English on the rail, depending on the carom angle into the rail. ...
As an example of this, imagine shooting a ball on the foot spot into the side pocket and the cue ball is near the second diamond so it is travelling parallel to the short rail on its way to the object ball that is on the foot spot. If you use inside side spin with follow, the cue ball will hit the long rail first and the side spin will be "reverse" or "breaking" on the long rail.

But if you play the shot with a little draw, the cue ball will hit the foot rail first and the side spin will be "running".


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06-08-2020, 01:15 AM

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06-08-2020, 05:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
until recently, I thought "running english" meant "top"
while reading, I somehow realized that this could not be
because top kills the cb going into the rail, right?

so are we talking just left or right? with a little top or no?
how do you define/explain "running english"?
FYI, all sidespin/english terminology is described and demonstrated in the videos and illustrations here:

Sidespin and English Terminology and Uses

Enjoy,
Dave
  
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06-08-2020, 05:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
FYI, all sidespin/english terminology is described and demonstrated in the videos and illustrations here:

Sidespin and English Terminology and Uses

Enjoy,
Dave
FYI, the terminology section starting at the 0.26 point in the following video provides a concise summary with demonstrations:

NV J.29 – SIDESPIN … Everything You Need to Know

Enjoy,
Dave
  
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06-08-2020, 02:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
...But if you play the shot with a little draw, the cue ball will hit the foot rail first and the side spin will be "running".
Just the opposite if the ‘draw’ is center ball. The cut object ball will induce outside spin (which would then be ‘braking’ english when it hits the end rail), and the still reversing draw spin will kill the rebound angle even more. Even with polished balls & new cloth the ‘braking’ effect is significant.

Last edited by DynoDan; 06-08-2020 at 02:38 PM.
  
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06-08-2020, 03:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
until recently, I thought "running english" meant "top"
while reading, I somehow realized that this could not be
because top kills the cb going into the rail, right?

so are we talking just left or right? with a little top or no?
how do you define/explain "running english"?
This maybe a little odd of an explanation, but think about it this way:

you are walking briskly toward a brick wall at an angle with your right hand side closest. When you make contact with that wall, the friction from the bricks will grab your shirt will tend to make you spin clockwise. That force is running English. If you approach the wall from the opposite side, you will spin counter clockwise.

Strange analogy, I know, but I hope it helps to illustrate what is going on.


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06-08-2020, 04:20 PM

If we remove the object ball from this discussion and just use the term to carom off multiple rails: "running english" would be the same spin on the cueball upon striking it as it would have after hitting 2 or more rails. Typically this is a level cue stroke just above center ball with spin in the direction the cueball is travelling around the table (about 1 o'clock to 2 o'clock if you are traveling in a clockwise direction, 11 oclock to 10 o'clock travelling counter clockwise. You need to test each table for the correct amout of spin needed.

An easy test to see what I'm talking about is to put the cueball anywhere in the middle of the table or near a corner pocket and hit it to the opposite rail around the 2nd diamond with a center ball. You will see that the cueball slides/skids and doesn't follow the typical "running english" path until after the 2nd rail. You will see that the ball spins naurally (running english) once it hits the 3rd rail. This natural spin is what you want to achieve as you hit the cueball to judge the path and speed throughout the kick to properly use basic systems.

Now that you tested it using center ball, hit the same place on the rail using "running english" as described above and you should see a very consistant roll and speed as it travels the rails.

When you add an object ball into the equation it would typically mean the same thing, but you may need hit it higher, flatter or draw off the object ball depending on the path your cueball needs to travel, but the correct spin should be used to be considerred running english (spinning in the direction the cueball is travelling).

Hope this helps. There are many sources that discuss this as Dr. Dave and Mr. Jewett (my heroes) decribed.

Good luck,
Dave

Last edited by 12squared; 06-08-2020 at 04:23 PM.
  
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06-08-2020, 06:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Inside English on the OB can be either “running” or “braking” English on the rail, depending on the carom angle into the rail.

The same terms can also describe the CB’s interaction with the OB: inside = “braking” and outside = “running “.

pj
chgo
That’s why I said in my original post... that’s what I’ve always considered running English . Just an honest answer. I’m not much on reading everyone’s comment to form my answer lol. I never looked up the Instructors definition. That’s just what it is to me. Knowing the correct textbook definition however will change the way I answer next time I’m asked.
Appreciate the input


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Last edited by peteypooldude; 06-08-2020 at 06:18 PM.
  
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06-08-2020, 06:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
As an example of this, imagine shooting a ball on the foot spot into the side pocket and the cue ball is near the second diamond so it is travelling parallel to the short rail on its way to the object ball that is on the foot spot. If you use inside side spin with follow, the cue ball will hit the long rail first and the side spin will be "reverse" or "breaking" on the long rail.

But if you play the shot with a little draw, the cue ball will hit the foot rail first and the side spin will be "running".
That’s a better description of what I was referring to. I’ve never heard outside English referred to as running English . But I’ve also never asked.


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