CTE/Pro One - Why Not Build a Physical Model?

LAMas said:

Thanks.
Notice that your sticks are creating an included angle and do not appear to be parallel - although we know that they are? The ends of the sticks at the CB are wider than at the OB.
If the CB an OB were almost touching, your sticks would appear to be more parallel.:smile:

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there are a lot of illusions on the pool table lamas, the key is to learn to control them. Example, the more you lower your eyes the closer/bigger the object ball will look and the higher your eyes the ob will look smaller/ farther. You have to figure out a way to create an illusion that will make you very consistent

champ2107 said:

there are a lot of illusions on the pool table lamas, the key is to learn to control them. Example, the more you lower your eyes the closer/bigger the object ball will look and the higher your eyes the ob will look smaller/ farther. You have to figure out a way to create an illusion that will make you very consistent

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I hope that my perception of the spheres are not "illusions".

"An optical illusion is always characterized by visually perceived images that, at least in common sense terms, are deceptive or misleading. Therefore, the information gathered by the eye is processed by the brain to give, on the face of it, a percept that does not tally with a physical measurement of the stimulus source...."

Wiki:smile:

you found it

Filibogado said:

Like many new users of CTE/Pro One, sighting the true center on a white round sphere of a cue ball, given the infinitely variable position of one's eyes and body alignment as one goes down for the shot, is the single biggest obstacle to consistency. Many have tried to explain the correct eye and body positioning by words, pictures, camera angles, graphics, foot placements, CAD/CAM drawings, etc. but there is always the gap between what the philosopher Immanuel Kant calls the "nuomenon" or the real world and the "phenomenon" or what the eyes actually see. In effect, what the eyes actually see are not where the objects really are, and the visualization tools I listed above suffer from the common affliction of being two-dimensional and therefore unable to depict reality in all its dimensions. Understanding and compensating for visual parallax is one solution by it is only a partial panacea. And if one happens to be cross-eyed or visually impaired, the problem is even worse.

I am by no means a structural engineer, but it seems to me that if someone can build a physical model of a CTE/Pro One visual image, that we can view from all angles, see and touch with our hands, it would be much easier to figure out the visuals in a CTE/Pro One shooting scenario.I'm talking about the same object that physicists use to build molecular models or DNA double helixes. I thnk you can build one using LEGO components. For example, one can take 2 bamboo skewers like the ones used for barbecues, pretend that 1 skewer represents the CTE line and that another skewer is the OBE line. Then you use superglue to glue the ends to their corresponding spots on the edge and center of the cue ball as well as the A, B & C portions of the object ball. You can build 6 such models representing the 3 object ball panels and the 2 (left/right pivot) cue ball positions. Once you have these models, you just set them on the table and then practice eyeballing them from all angles, shifting you foot position, tilting your head, using your dominant eye, twisting your neck, aligning your chin, and myriad other angles. One you find your most accurate position, burn them in your memory by staring at the models at the correct angle all night long, and practicing them during your waking hours.

Just thought I'd throw this in as a fresh new way of looking at the never-ending quest for CTE/Pro One nirvana.

Flip

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You just described all the variables that make this system, along with the pivot, inconsistent, or unrepeatable.

banned, why?

Jal said:

Can it be? Could it be? The voice of reason again? Welcome back, Sir!

Jim

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I agree. He always puts holes in the theory, and when the holes can't be filled he is the bad guy. I don't get the double standard. I would really like to hear the CTE side prove him wrong rather than getting mad and saying everyone doesn't understand. Try that in court and see how far you get.

no contact point

champ2107 said:

this is getting interesting as well as amusing watching you guys miss read lamas pictures and not having a clue if he is talking about cte or not. (guess what that tells me ) I never look at the contact point, no need for it. Cte/pro1 has taught me to just see the shot without needing to find the exact contact point and keep wasting your time and amusing me talking about the small ob ball stuff.

Look at Pj trying to stir up the pot with the "Using the contact point directly is a quantum leap improvement over "indirect approximation" systems like CTE" comment lol you will find out shortly there is nothing left to debate. Its all been put out there lol

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IMO not looking for some kind of contact point would be like looking through a scope without recticles or center dot. I wonder how accurate that would be.

maybe you should learn the system and you can actually make an informed post and you could help PJ give an informed post as well. Sorry guy but dont bother quoting me new or old, because your type of posts are old and have been dealt with a long time ago. So educate yourself and go through all the cte threads, nuff said.

To answer this question cause it can't be done. How can you build something to represent something that exists only in the mind?

champ2107 said:

maybe you should learn the system and you can actually make an informed post and you could help PJ give an informed post as well. Sorry guy but dont bother quoting me because type of posts are old and have been dealt with a long time ago.

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Sorry, not to meaning to make you upset. I wanted to believe in it. I have tried the system, and discussed with others about it who have tried it. I am very informed, scientifically, and especially on the workings of the subconscious/conscious minds. That is the exact reason I question it. I don't know PJ or care who he is, but he makes great points. Every time someone make a great point why it doesn't work, the CTE guys get defensive instead of giving any physical proof it works.

If it works for you that is awesome. Use it. Don't be hurtful because people poke holes in it. If you have the answers fill the holes. It shouldn't affect your game. All I would like to see is actual proof it works. If it does work, which maybe I just can't understand the concept, then the people who use it should be the at the top of the food chain. Now I am just a banger, so don't use me as an example. I have more issues than just aiming. Name me a few top end people that use it that are world champions, us open champions, etc. Don't go with Stevie Moore. He won his championship at the age of 21, before he used CTE, and learned how to really shoot after playing with Earl for 8 years.

Don't take my posts as attacks, but as posts requiring more information and proof. If I or someone pokes a hole in the theory, your job as the expert is to show proof not get mad. If you can't explain it admit it.

By the way what was the outcome with the guy who wanted to shoot 8 shots with you for the $200. Did it happen? Were you able to show him, and is the video up anywhere?

Good playing to you.

list these holes you can poke in the cte/pro1 and don't ramble on about other stuff, please. Just post these holes in a list form please and nothing more ok Lamas stretching out all these pages with his pictures

i reckon in less than 2 years we will have phil burford and landon shuffet playing against each other in the mosconi cup ! stans a winner whatever happens , lol :thumbup:

champ2107 said:

maybe you should learn the system and you can actually make an informed post and you could help PJ give an informed post as well. Sorry guy but dont bother quoting me new or old, because your type of posts are old and have been dealt with a long time ago. So educate yourself and go through all the cte threads, nuff said.

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Wish you lived in So. Cal. 20+ million people and no one knows CTE well enough to teach it. Unbelievable. Wish Stan could or would teach some instructors for the various regions because he lives way too far away for me to consider taking lessons.

After watching Landon hammer Earl how could people doubt the system.
Amazing how many people waste their time knocking the system. They are not going to change anyones minds. Empty empowerment doesn't come from saying yes.

I've been working on Pro One now for several months now and it's only just recently started to come together. As of last week balls are dropping from everywhere.
Totally amazing.
It was however very frustrating for a while and I even gave up on it now and then. For those of you who live in the USA I would not hesitate to fly to Stans for 2 days of training as it would make the whole thing a lot easier. That being said I learnt just through the DVD, and I had to go through my own learning curve which was tough.
I experimented with lots of different variations and I finally got it.
Cheers

gazman100 said:

I've been working on Pro One now for several months now and it's only just recently started to come together. As of last week balls are dropping from everywhere.
Totally amazing.
It was however very frustrating for a while and I even gave up on it now and then. For those of you who live in the USA I would not hesitate to fly to Stans for 2 days of training as it would make the whole thing a lot easier. That being said I learnt just through the DVD, and I had to go through my own learning curve which was tough.
I experimented with lots of different variations and I finally got it.
Cheers

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Do a 2 rail kick shot and let us know how well you do or even a 3 rail bank shot.

There is more than cuts shoots in pool. Being able to do these two types of shots has helped me win a few matches.

Safety play is just as lmportant as dropping balls in the pocket. 2 rail or even 1 rail kick shots are very important in safety play.

duckie said:

Do a 2 rail kick shot and let us know how well you do or even a 3 rail bank shot.

There is more than cuts shoots in pool. Being able to do these two types of shots has helped me win a few matches.

Safety play is just as lmportant as dropping balls in the pocket. 2 rail or even 1 rail kick shots are very important in safety play.

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How do YOU do the kick shots? Surely you don't use the arrow for those? There are excellent systems that cover all kick shots. And actually safety play is NOT just as important as shotmaking. The reason is because playing a safety shot generally comes with a lot of options and a WIDE range of effectiveness that spans creating distance to freezing the cue ball. Wheras shotmaking has a very narrow margin to succeed.

And can we hope upon hope that you will follow your own advice and stay out of CTE threads unless you are posting something about CTE from your own experience?

Roadie said:

And can we hope upon hope that you will follow your own advice and stay out of CTE threads unless you are posting something about CTE from your own experience?

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So only CTE users are welcome in your CTE threads, John? That's the old you - start fresh.

Exclusion of "heretics" is for religions.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson said:

So only CTE users are welcome in your CTE threads, John? That's the old you - start fresh.

Exclusion of "heretics" is for religions.

pj
chgo

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Mr. Johnson, the comment was intended for the person who started a thread about leaving it alone when people don't want to do it your way. So I personally hope that he follows his own advice. Your posts are thoughtful and on topic. Duckie's posts touting the Ghost Ball method in a thread about CTE are not on topic and only meant to incite arguments.

Has nothing to do with heretics. If you're in a baptist church then typically you don't want someone interupting the conversation every two minutes to say that the methodist faith is better. It's simple courtesy to allow a thread about CTE to continue to be about CTE. I will grant that this thread is in general about Mr. Schmidt's comments but we all know that it was started in order to slam CTE.

Lastly, you don't know my name so if you want to address me then you are free to choose whatever name you prefer to use.

Nope, just pointing out the limitations of the system.

Seems that we haven't heard back from him and how well it went.

Since you asked, and this goes for all shots I do, I start with where I want the OB to go and work backwards to the spot on the table, which when using the arrow for training, would be the point of the arrow. See, the point of the arrow gives a real world aiming point to practice with.

I start all my practice session doing 1 and 2 rail kicks. I start with where I want the OB to go which gives me the spot on the table to go for. And then it's trail and error to a point that it is no longer trail and error. The time is put in to get the feel for how 2 rail kicks works in corners at different in, out angles. There is no system, not even GB, that can give a person this sense of feel for banks. It all HAMB.


See, I don't want new players to fall for CTE cure all for shot making when there is no such thing, not even GB. Pool is about winning games and that requires being able to do shots the CTE can not handle.

Ghost Ball can handle all shots when it comes to aiming, but no system can give you the feel for what all can and does happen on a table during a pool game.

And how you handle whats on the table is the heart of the game. If someone, like me notices you can not kick, trust me, on every safe I play on you, it will be a 2 rail kick reply.

So, I just post real world shots in order to expose the short comings of any system the relies in being able to have a direct from the OB to CB for aiming. These include fractional, double the distance, SEE, CTE and more.

Describe how you pick up the CTE aim lines for a 2 rail kick or even for fractional or double the distance.

A simple rail first shot. You know where the OB is so close to the pocket but a another ball is blocking a direct path to the OB, but you could go the the rail first right before the OB and then into the OB to pocket the ball. Also this type of shot is useful to help get better angle off a OB even when the path the to OB is not blocked.

The more range of shots a person has on their bag of tricks the better the odds of winning. CTE is to limiting in the shot it can be used on to be a long term effective way to aim and the sooner a player understands this, the sooner they can move on to GB and really start to improve.

..............

duckie said:

Nope, just pointing out the limitations of the system.

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You're pointing out the limitations of a method you don't know how to perform? Isn't that sort of like a high jumper who does the feet first method telling everyone how bad the Fosbury method is? (hint - the Fosbury flop revolutionized high jumping with a radically new technique)

Since you asked, and this goes for all shots I do, I start with where I want the OB to go and work backwards to the spot on the table, which when using the arrow for training, would be the point of the arrow. See, the point of the arrow gives a real world aiming point to practice with.

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Can we see a video demonstration of how you train with the arrow. I am genuinely interested in the time it takes you to set up a shot with it. A five minute video would be sufficient.

I start all my practice session doing 1 and 2 rail kicks. I start with where I want the OB to go which gives me the spot on the table to go for. And then it's trail and error to a point that it is no longer trail and error. The time is put in to get the feel for how 2 rail kicks works in corners at different in, out angles. There is no system, not even GB, that can give a person this sense of feel for banks. It all HAMB.

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Um, actually this statement is flat out wrong. Banks and kicks are most defintely ruled by geometry first. There are many systems for both and frankly they are all pretty much the same for banks and kicks. These systems all work perfectly and give the shooter an excellent feel for banks and kicks very very quickly. In fact the easiest one for one rail kicks is the double-the-distance method. With it you only need your pool cue to measure with and after a while you don't need that. And your pool cue is with you all the time in practice and competition.

See, I don't want new players to fall for CTE cure all for shot making when there is no such thing, not even GB. Pool is about winning games and that requires being able to do shots the CTE can not handle.

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So you don't think that perhaps there might be other ways of looking at the shot that are NOT ghost ball? Even after Mr. CJ Wiley, a seasoned professional, told us that there are defintely other ways? And you know what CTE can handle because you have used CTE?

Ghost Ball can handle all shots when it comes to aiming, but no system can give you the feel for what all can and does happen on a table during a pool game.

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The system doesn't give you any feel at all. Playing the game does. You can analyze the baseball swing all you want to, you can use any method you find to train that swing, but nothing gives the feeling of hitting the ball like doing it. The point of all this is that there are alternative methods of looking at a shot that work very very very very well.

And how you handle whats on the table is the heart of the game. If someone, like me notices you can not kick, trust me, on every safe I play on you, it will be a 2 rail kick reply.

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I am sorry sir but with all due respect, you need to take this to the APA2 discussion. I really dislike being snarky but you are intriducing red herrings to the discussion and they stink. Any player who aspires to be good practices all aspects of the game. And I have seen your videos and frankly you should defintely be putting in your table time instead of your keyboard time at this point. Any serious player works on aspects of the game so that they are prepared to handle what they are facing.

So, I just post real world shots in order to expose the short comings of any system the relies in being able to have a direct from the OB to CB for aiming. These include fractional, double the distance, SEE, CTE and more.

Describe how you pick up the CTE aim lines for a 2 rail kick or even for fractional or double the distance.

A simple rail first shot. You know where the OB is so close to the pocket but a another ball is blocking a direct path to the OB, but you could go the the rail first right before the OB and then into the OB to pocket the ball. Also this type of shot is useful to help get better angle off a OB even when the path the to OB is not blocked.

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What if I told you that you can use CTE for all those shots? You wouldn't believe it anyway. The point is (sigh) that CTE is an excellent way to sight shots directly to a pocket. It works great for banks as well. And Mr. Shuffett shows kicks on his DVD as well.

Mr. Duckie, ghost ball works. Applied correctly it is precise and works great. We agree and most of us are very procient in using it. With this type of activity, playing pool, we expect results. So any person who tries CTE is eiher going to be pleased with the results and seek to deepen their knoweldge of it or they will abandon it and either look for something else or simply go back to ghost ball. So your constant interjection to attempt to block people from it is not only ineffective, it's actually helpful as you only give those promoting CTE more opportunities to explain the benefits. Now you stated that people should move on from trying to convince skeptics. Don't you think that you should apply this to yourself as well or did you mean that "we" should stop trying to convince you? We don't really care about you. What we care about is that people who would like to try CTE get help from those of us who use it. If you don't want to use it then why not simply move on?

The more range of shots a person has on their bag of tricks the better the odds of winning. CTE is to limiting in the shot it can be used on to be a long term effective way to aim and the sooner a player understands this, the sooner they can move on to GB and really start to improve.

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What makes you think that anyone who is interested in CTE hasn't already been using GB? Ghost Ball is the most common method of teaching aiming. Every player from APA2 and above who can read has been exposed to GB aiming. There are dozens of GB trainers on the market as well as many free ones like your arrow.

To paraphrase Mr. Schmidt, 'if GB works then there should be four million players who play like me and Corey', ghost ball is over rated'.

Duckie is this you? https://www.youtube.com/user/ducman954?feature=watch

These videos were done a year ago. So from then until now you have had a year to improve. Can we see some more video of you now? Given all that you have said we should be seeing some advanced level shotmaking and position play. I would like to personally request a lot of one rail and two rail kicks since you talk about those a lot.

Also some shots where the object ball is more than 6 inches from the pocket would be nice. Some middle table shots, really thin cuts, reverse cuts, and some straight ins corner to corner would be nice.

Mr. Segal has posted several videos of himself doing all these, doing banks, doing ultra thin cuts with the object ball frozen to the rail, a 50+ run in 14.1 using CTE and so on. And his friends have posted that Mr. Segal jumped several levels after learning CTE.

So, and this is just for myself, I would like to see what you can do now after another year of diligent practicing. I esplecially would like to see the arrow in action and if I may say I beleive that Mr. Cranfield would be very proud of you if you would show the world how it works on video and in detail.