Aim System or Common sense?

Palmerfan

AzB Gold Member
Silver Member
I read this post and after thinking about it, it started to make sense to me..I'm wondering from some of the better players (Teachers, A ,A+, Open and Pro) if this type of aiming makes sense. It is the most simple I have ever heard of a way to Aim..was wondering what top quality players thought. Here is the post. Its on "about.com" which usually isn't to detailed in anything, but this could be so simple that its dead on:confused:..

http://billiards.about.com/od/basictechniques/a/Secrets-Of-Aiming-In-Pool-And-Billiards.htm
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
If the article is saying to aim the center of the CB at the intended contact point on the OB -- that's no good. That will undercut everything except for straight shots. Some nearly straight shots may also be pocketed, but only because of pocket slop or cheating the pocket.

But the article really isn't written clearly enough to know for sure what is intended.
 
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sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
If the article is saying to aim the center of the CB at the intended contact point on the OB -- that's no good. That will undercut everything except for straight shots. Some nearly straight shots may also be pocketed, but only because of pocket slop or cheating the pocket.

But the article really isn't written clearly enough to know for sure what is intended.

I agree. Matt Sherman seems to start out describing the well-known "back of ball" (back of object ball, that is) method taught in snooker circles. But he goes awry when he says to take that point straight through (a line from that point on the object ball, straight through) the center of the cue ball. No good. You do that, and you will MOST DEFINITELY undercut every shot on the table, save straight-in shots. And that's not even taking "throw" into consideration either, which exacerbates the undercutting problem even further. You'll drive every shot into the facing rail.

I'm surprised Matt Sherman posted this info, because it's well-known to be wrong. In fact, whereas Matt says he sees beginners trying to aim for a non-existent ghostball, but somehow "pros" know not to do this, I see the opposite. I see rank beginners in some leagues make this aiming mistake -- aiming through the center of the cue ball, right at the object ball contact point, and wondering why they're driving the object ball into the rail.

Now granted, not many people can visualize a non-existent object at the correct point to pocket an object ball. It takes some really good 3D visualization skills to do that accurately, and not many people possess that skill. But he's wrong to say that most pros don't use this method to aim. They do, but in a different way -- eclipsing. Instead of trying to aim the cue ball center through an imagined point on the cloth next to object ball at the correct contact point, they aim to eclipse the object ball by a certain amount. These "certain amounts" to eclipse the object ball with (to send it at the corresponding angle to the pocket) have been memorized through practice. And believe it or not, there's not that many "certain amounts" you have to memorize, either. The standard 3/4-ball hit, 2/3-ball hit, 1/2-ball hit, 1/3-ball hit, 1/4-ball hit, and "thinning" the object ball will give you a lot of mileage. Any other shots are just "tweeners" between those standard eclipse values, and your mind -- a very powerful calculator, if you let it -- will properly pick out those "tweener" values to pocket that object ball. It's just focused practice on memorizing those standard eclipse values as soon as you see them on the table.

The following is actually the PROPER way to apply the back-of-ball aiming technique:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kLjSlHr38dc

Hope this is a helpful clarification,
-Sean <-- Open-level player, if that means anything
 

TX Poolnut

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That's right -- and that's why I stated I'm surprised he -- Matt Sherman -- posted that. The "someone of his pedigree" part is implied.

-Sean

I have seen his book and rifled through it at my job (bookstore). It looked pretty comprehensive and thourough, plus it comes with a DVD. He's probably a pretty smart guy, but I've never met him.
 

OneIron

On the snap, Vinny!
Silver Member
I read this post and after thinking about it, it started to make sense to me..I'm wondering from some of the better players (Teachers, A ,A+, Open and Pro) if this type of aiming makes sense. It is the most simple I have ever heard of a way to Aim..was wondering what top quality players thought. Here is the post. Its on "about.com" which usually isn't to detailed in anything, but this could be so simple that its dead on:confused:..

http://billiards.about.com/od/basictechniques/a/Secrets-Of-Aiming-In-Pool-And-Billiards.htm

Strangely enough, that's exactly how I aim. I just always assumed that I subconsciously adjusted to get the proper hit. The ghost ball never worked for me. I can't aim at something that's not there.
 

Geometry

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just look down the CB's path and see how the CB is going to knock the OB.
 
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Palmerfan

AzB Gold Member
Silver Member
I read this post and after thinking about it, it started to make sense to me..I'm wondering from some of the better players (Teachers, A ,A+, Open and Pro) if this type of aiming makes sense. It is the most simple I have ever heard of a way to Aim..was wondering what top quality players thought. Here is the post. Its on "about.com" which usually isn't to detailed in anything, but this could be so simple that its dead on:confused:..

http://billiards.about.com/od/basictechniques/a/Secrets-Of-Aiming-In-Pool-And-Billiards.htm

bump for some aim help...
 

Palmerfan

AzB Gold Member
Silver Member
I read this post and after thinking about it, it started to make sense to me..I'm wondering from some of the better players (Teachers, A ,A+, Open and Pro) if this type of aiming makes sense. It is the most simple I have ever heard of a way to Aim..was wondering what top quality players thought. Here is the post. Its on "about.com" which usually isn't to detailed in anything, but this could be so simple that its dead on:confused:..

http://billiards.about.com/od/basictechniques/a/Secrets-Of-Aiming-In-Pool-And-Billiards.htm

Bump for tips on sighting and aim..ghostball..ETE/CTE...Contact Point..Parallel Aim..sectional aim...something
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Just happened to find this thread. Sorry for the delay in replying.

Thanks, Sean and all for your thorough review and response.

A few things to bear in mind, even though I hesitate to discuss aiming systems at times for reasons we all know (!):

1. Most amateur pool players overcut their shots. Taking cue ball center toward contact point helps them to hit the ball more thick. Combining a thick hit with a soft enough stroke does wonders for pocketing many different types of challenging cut shots.

2. I've said on About.com and in InsidePool that many pros will say a) they learned ghost ball at an early age b) they abandoned ghost ball aim long ago for just pointing the cue stick through the cue ball at the contact point (for those shots not far past 3/4 of the object ball thin, of course).

I've also written how there are many fine players will swear they are pointing at the contact point even as their cue tip is aimed far closer to the ghost ball center than the contact point.

Why do they do this? Because their eyes (and probably most of us reading this thread do this most of the time at the tables) are focused on the contact point to see a real object in 3D space while their cue is pointed more toward the geometric aiming point to subconciously adjust!

Try it for yourself and see. Shoot some shots with the cue ball center toward the contact point. You'll sink a few and then very carefully assume your stance without looking at the cue ball but with your tip pointed to the contact point. Many skilled players will look down to see their tip pointed at the ghost ball center instead...

3. I will say that contact point aim is a great reference point to start; is used by many pros as I've said, and that there are far more throw issues and eyesight issues with the ghost ball method.

4. Even with throw all but eliminated using fractional amounts of outside english, ghost ball aiming is very dangerous stuff.

5. I would probably say "edge to edge aim" rather than "eclipsing" as you described, since a true eclipse means you are way down low with your eyes very near the table. You cannot see the hit at impact on the far side of the cue ball from your eyes as we all know, but edge-to-edge is a great term to use to help people struggling with very thin hits.

It's easier to tell a novice, "Shoot those thin cuts sending the right edge of the cue ball at the contact point" rather than to see a very thin eclipse. Note also that edge-to-edge implies a visualization that does not need to be "made" from behind the cue ball in front of the cue tip - an "eclipse" does. Not trying to be a semantics guy here.

6. Enough of that for now--what do y'all think?
 

BasementDweller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In response to BilliardsAbout:

I'm a bit confused by your aiming method. I'm all for using your subconcious to do the fine tuning required to pocket the balls, but I don't understand why you would essentially always aim the middle of the cue ball at the contact point. Actually, it seems like this would be bad advice for anyone that plays decent pool, since you would establish one line of aim, get down on the shot, and then you would have to reallign your cue to the proper shot line. I won't go so far as to say this won't work though, because maybe just the simplification of the aiming method could prove to be beneficial. It just seems like this is a lot of work for the subconcious. But I could be wrong.

Sean's eclipsing method seems to make much more sense to me and this is how I do it.

I'm thinking if you paired the two methods you might have a winner. So, while standing you do the eclipsing to get the proper shot line. Then once you are down on the shot you focus on the contact point. I may have to revisit focusing on the contact point. I don't really find myself focusing on a specific point on the object ball anymore. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
There's a lot I can say and I risk extremes by complicating or over-simplifying but I'll try to keep it simple and sweet:

1. "Contact point aim" works well for balls cut between about 1/4 and 3/4 of a ball. Beyond that, you can still line up (with your choice of contact point or ghost ball) and stroke straight on, yet while pre-visualizing the edge of the cue ball hitting the edge of the object ball at its contact point (eclipse or edge-to-edge aim).

2. You don't need to line up using the contact point than readjust to the ghost ball as you mentioned, because most shots fall in that 1/4 to 3/4 range...

3. Before a geometer (or 10 of them) come out to say why I'm wrong, as if I've never bothered to line up circles on paper or spheres in a virtual environment and am ignorant that contact point aim is too thick--there are several factors here, including cue ball speed, whether fractional outside english is applied to counteract throw, etc. What's important is a contact point is a real thing to aim at in 3D space and a ghost ball is a mere ghost, which is why the pros usually say when asked:

4. "I aim at the contact point!" Pros when asked to give further advice will often say, "Hit the object ball more thick [than the geometric/ghost ball aiming point]."

5. Contact point and ghost ball both require adjustment. (No, really!) The adjustment should be made between what is sighted while standing erect and what is seen in the full stance as described in Answers to a Pool Player's Prayers.

6. Where are you standing to begin aim, and then from where do you assume your stance? Most players begin standing on the "full" line, that is, along an extension past the table of the shortest possible line between the cue ball and the object ball.

7. Don't knock it until you try it--go to your hall and if you miss many cut shots these days, start your aim process by standing along the full line then hitting them a) more thick and b) more softly than before. Okay, even if you don't miss many cut shots these days, try it!

That is, shoot softly enough that you can really appreciate impact and initial throw/line of travel. You will sink more balls than before, especially if you don't use outside english already to cinch balls.

I'm speaking from practical clinical experience. I've always had students sink more balls using this method than ghost ball or "instinct". And the A players and semi-pro players shoot a couple of these and then turn and look at me like I belong at Hogwart's School of Witchcraft and not About.com.

Hope that it helps, if not, I'll try to clarify further. Thanks.
 

West Point 1987

On the Hill, Out of Gas
Silver Member
It's all about visualization when you're talking about these methods...I visualize the contact point on the object ball and then line up to "side-swipe" the point with the cue ball. I gave up trying to find specific cueball reference points long ago as too constraining. For me, it's easier to focus on where I need to hit the object ball and just get the cue ball there. Describing it as side-swiping the contact point is the easiest way to describe it in my opinion. If you think of your cue ball as a car you're driving on a course and you need to knock the mirror off another car, you get the idea. I don't need to look at the quarter panel of the car I'm driving, I just need to maintain eye contact with the point of the car (the mirror) I'm trying to hit. My mind and hand-eye coordination know how to deliver the car I'm driving to that precise point at the angle of approach.
 

whitewolf

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Blah Blah Blah for aiming systems. Most pros admit to spinning the cue ball, especially Earl and Mike Sigel. There was an article on AZ about 3 years back with postings from a magazine or newspaper, I forget which.

Now I ask anyone, how in the frick can you do all this spinning and have an aiming system? Spinning is based on feel.......natural talent.
 

MahnaMahna

Beefcake. BEEFCAKE!!
Silver Member
I think the article is exactly what should be on a site like about.com. Good job!

Plus, after I read about the basics of pool aiming, I can read secrets on making killer french fries, learn to knit, add some new exercises to my fitness routine, and pick up some pointers on dealing with ADHD.
 

One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I agree. Matt Sherman seems to start out describing the well-known "back of ball" (back of object ball, that is) method taught in snooker circles. But he goes awry when he says to take that point straight through (a line from that point on the object ball, straight through) the center of the cue ball. No good. You do that, and you will MOST DEFINITELY undercut every shot on the table, save straight-in shots. And that's not even taking "throw" into consideration either, which exacerbates the undercutting problem even further. You'll drive every shot into the facing rail.

I'm surprised Matt Sherman posted this info, because it's well-known to be wrong. In fact, whereas Matt says he sees beginners trying to aim for a non-existent ghostball, but somehow "pros" know not to do this, I see the opposite. I see rank beginners in some leagues make this aiming mistake -- aiming through the center of the cue ball, right at the object ball contact point, and wondering why they're driving the object ball into the rail.

Now granted, not many people can visualize a non-existent object at the correct point to pocket an object ball. It takes some really good 3D visualization skills to do that accurately, and not many people possess that skill. But he's wrong to say that most pros don't use this method to aim. They do, but in a different way -- eclipsing. Instead of trying to aim the cue ball center through an imagined point on the cloth next to object ball at the correct contact point, they aim to eclipse the object ball by a certain amount. These "certain amounts" to eclipse the object ball with (to send it at the corresponding angle to the pocket) have been memorized through practice. And believe it or not, there's not that many "certain amounts" you have to memorize, either. The standard 3/4-ball hit, 2/3-ball hit, 1/2-ball hit, 1/3-ball hit, 1/4-ball hit, and "thinning" the object ball will give you a lot of mileage. Any other shots are just "tweeners" between those standard eclipse values, and your mind -- a very powerful calculator, if you let it -- will properly pick out those "tweener" values to pocket that object ball. It's just focused practice on memorizing those standard eclipse values as soon as you see them on the table.

The following is actually the PROPER way to apply the back-of-ball aiming technique:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kLjSlHr38dc

Hope this is a helpful clarification,
-Sean <-- Open-level player, if that means anything

This is the aiming system I have used for decades. What he didnt explain was how to use the sides of the cue shaft for aiming when using side spin.

The mass of a cue ball is approximately the size of a quarter, a quarter is approximately 1" in diameter. A cue shaft at the ferrel, on most cues is 13mm (1/2") The sides of the cue shaft never leave the vertical center of the cue ball. So you aim the side of the shaft at the back of ball aimimg point and not the center of the shaft.

I shoot thru the cue ball (like its not there) and at the object ball with my cue.

What I do, is to try to feel how smoothly I can pocket the OB.

John
 

mohrt

Student of the Game
Silver Member
Now I ask anyone, how in the frick can you do all this spinning and have an aiming system? Spinning is based on feel.......natural talent.

An aiming system just gets you to the geometric center of the pocket. Anything else (spin, throw) is additive, you have to work that out with the talent you speak of ;) That said, if you can consistently find center pocket you give yourself maximum wiggle room for the additive stuff.
 

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
There's a lot I can say and I risk extremes by complicating or over-simplifying but I'll try to keep it simple and sweet:

1. "Contact point aim" works well for balls cut between about 1/4 and 3/4 of a ball. Beyond that, you can still line up (with your choice of contact point or ghost ball) and stroke straight on, yet while pre-visualizing the edge of the cue ball hitting the edge of the object ball at its contact point (eclipse or edge-to-edge aim).

2. You don't need to line up using the contact point than readjust to the ghost ball as you mentioned, because most shots fall in that 1/4 to 3/4 range...

3. Before a geometer (or 10 of them) come out to say why I'm wrong, as if I've never bothered to line up circles on paper or spheres in a virtual environment and am ignorant that contact point aim is too thick--there are several factors here, including cue ball speed, whether fractional outside english is applied to counteract throw, etc. What's important is a contact point is a real thing to aim at in 3D space and a ghost ball is a mere ghost, which is why the pros usually say when asked:

4. "I aim at the contact point!" Pros when asked to give further advice will often say, "Hit the object ball more thick [than the geometric/ghost ball aiming point]."

5. Contact point and ghost ball both require adjustment. (No, really!) The adjustment should be made between what is sighted while standing erect and what is seen in the full stance as described in Answers to a Pool Player's Prayers.

6. Where are you standing to begin aim, and then from where do you assume your stance? Most players begin standing on the "full" line, that is, along an extension past the table of the shortest possible line between the cue ball and the object ball.

7. Don't knock it until you try it--go to your hall and if you miss many cut shots these days, start your aim process by standing along the full line then hitting them a) more thick and b) more softly than before. Okay, even if you don't miss many cut shots these days, try it!

That is, shoot softly enough that you can really appreciate impact and initial throw/line of travel. You will sink more balls than before, especially if you don't use outside english already to cinch balls.

I'm speaking from practical clinical experience. I've always had students sink more balls using this method than ghost ball or "instinct". And the A players and semi-pro players shoot a couple of these and then turn and look at me like I belong at Hogwart's School of Witchcraft and not About.com.

Hope that it helps, if not, I'll try to clarify further. Thanks.

Matt:

Wow! Talk about pointing an in-operation hair dryer under the bed, and watching the dust bunnies roll out! This is a dust bunny from the recent past.

Anyway, getting to the heart of the matter, here are some bulletized thoughts of my own (in no particular order, and certainly not in the order that you bulleted your points):

1. You're an obviously intelligent person, with great writing skills, and a "style" about your writing. However, please be careful with your innuendos about "geometers" or "armchair pool players" (that latter one added by me, as a direct conclusion of your innuendo). There are REAL pool players here, some of us even know which end of the cue is which. And, no offense, being a writer for a general/topical site like "About.com" isn't exactly a de-facto authoritative reference, nor is it a guarantee that the writers there are subject matter experts. While you (and your articles) personally may be an exception (believe me, I know who you are, and I respect you), many of the "articles" posted there are either too topical/generic (i.e. tailored to the average Joe/Jane Q. Public), or very suspect in their accuracy.

2. I find it an odd paradox that you mention Richard Kranicki's great work, "Answer to a Pool Player's Prayers," yet you advocate an approach which seems to EMBRACE parallax error, not fix it as Kranicki instructs. You mention that many pros "think" they're aiming "here" but their cue is actually pointing over "there." I find that odd, because most pros that I know, know exactly where their cue is pointing, and can demonstrate it convincingly. (I'm talking about the Tony Robles types, who also offer instruction, by the way.) Kranicki's work is dedicated to finding out *why* your cue isn't pointing where you think it is, and devotes much of the content of the book to fixing it, not "building in" compensation for it.

3. You mention about CP-to-CP and ghostball both need adjustments. Of course this is true -- CIT is a very real thing, and needs to be incorporated in the aim. However, one should NEVER be making adjustments once down on the shot. Or very rarely. You aim while standing, you execute on that aim when down on the shot.

4. In the spirit of what "Answer to a Pool Player's Prayers" was about, one should identify the root cause of missed shots, not "build in compensation" for them. If one is overcutting balls continually, one should find out *why* it's happening -- not compensate for it by aiming directly at the contact point (which tells me, at least, that there's either a parallax problem there [head/eye alignment issue] or a cue delivery problem).

Many pool players (and specifically pool players, as opposed to snooker players) have problems with fundamentals. The "standing at a 45-degree angle to the cue" pool player stance presents its own issues with lack of repeatable precision, specifically with precise placement of body parts and joints in line with the shot line, and with head/eye alignment. That latter one, by the way, is a biggie. Enough so, that it spawned an entire branch of pool instruction (SPF), and information/products designed to deal with the many holes in pool's approach to fundamentals (e.g. Kranicki's work, Gene Albrecht's follow-on product called "perfect aim," etc.).

In summary, I realize that you're targeting that article at the average Joe/Jane Q. Public recreational pool player, but the intent of the discussion here, on these very subject-focused forums, is to discuss why, long-term, it's not the correct approach to take.

Respectfully,
-Sean
 
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