Looking at the Pros aim from above.

LAMas

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was at the Riviera to see the Pros last week. The seating was so bad that I bought the VIP ticket and went to the skybox seats. This allowed me to look directly at the tables below me from above. I noticed that most set up their shots with english and at the same time compensating for the shaft deflection.

For slight thick cuts (almost straight in), it looks like the are using a little english, but it appears that they are using the shaft deflection to effect the shot, and at other times, they are using english to effect CIT.

Their aiming seems unconscious (they see the line to the pocket) and with more attention to the application of english and compensating for shaft deflection.:thumbup:
 

cfrandy

AKA: The Road Runner
Silver Member
I was at the Riviera to see the Pros last week. The seating was so bad that I bought the VIP ticket and went to the skybox seats. This allowed me to look directly at the tables below me from above. I noticed that most set up their shots with english and at the same time compensating for the shaft deflection.

For slight thick cuts (almost straight in), it looks like the are using a little english, but it appears that they are using the shaft deflection to effect the shot, and at other times, they are using english to effect CIT.

Their aiming seems unconscious (they see the line to the pocket) and with more attention to the application of english and compensating for shaft deflection.:thumbup:

It IS unconscious! Aiming is NOT something you should have to think about when executing a shot. Yet people in this forum would have you think it is the ONLY thing you must think about...that's why THEY are NOT pros!
 

cfrandy

AKA: The Road Runner
Silver Member
Is that right?? Well, since you said "people", I'll put you to the test and ask you to name just TWO people that have said that.

If you can't, I'll just assume you are just trolling to knock aiming systems yet again.:rolleyes:

Neil you are such a jerk, you above anyone else has talk about nothing but aiming! Fortunately, you have no clue. I doubt you could make half of the balls you shoot. Comment on the OP's post not someone else's opinions. Your propensity for personal attacks on people's whose opinions differ from your own is getting rather boring!
 

genomachino

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Call me for the Free Phone lesson/ Perfect Aim...

It IS unconscious! Aiming is NOT something you should have to think about when executing a shot. Yet people in this forum would have you think it is the ONLY thing you must think about...that's why THEY are NOT pros!

Hi there,

I'll guarantee I'll change your mind in about 15 minutes.

Perfect aim works and pretty much works for everyone that learns it.

Just be by a table when you call. I should be on the road tomorrow.

715-563-8712 Just trying to help you there Mr Randy make your pool game a little bit better..
 

Shaky1

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think the game is easy and we make it hard.
When I play good pool, it's easy.
When I play good golf, it's easy too!
When I try too hard, it becomes hard.
Aiming is automatic when I play my best.
When I start thinking, the game gets harder.

When I start thinking........I start stinking.
 
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cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think the game is easy and we make it hard.
When I play good pool, it's easy.
When I play good golf, it's easy too!
When I try too hard, it becomes hard.
Aiming is automatic when I play my best.
When I start thinking, the game gets harder.

When I start thinking........I start stinking.

So what are the secrets to making it automatic? I know its a matter of getting in the zone, but how is that achieved, and how do you not revert back to thinking?
 

stan shuffett

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Unconscious aiming? Not hardly but I understand the context. I don't think anyone is going to argrue that aiming consciously in a verbal, analytical type manner is a best practice.
Regardless of how one aims, it is a learned behavior and hopefully an ongoing refinement that becomes more and more subconscious over time.

Research strongly indicates that the more proficient one becomes at a specific skill the less they are able to exlain the intracasies of that skill. That's typical for many pros and is also why many pros choose not to instruct.

Nick Varner has stated in BIlliards Digest on more than one occasion that learning to aim should be a lifelong pursuit. I agree. I miss balls every day that I practice or play...The day I decide I will no longer consciously try to improve my game will likely be the day I hang it up.

Stan Shuffett
 

BasementDweller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Unconscious aiming? Not hardly but I understand the context. I don't think anyone is going to argrue that aiming consciously in a verbal, analytical type manner is a best practice.
Regardless of how one aims, it is a learned behavior and hopefully an ongoing refinement that becomes more and more subconscious over time.

Research strongly indicates that the more proficient one becomes at a specific skill the less they are able to exlain the intracasies of that skill. That's typical for many pros and is also why many pros choose not to instruct.

Nick Varner has stated in BIlliards Digest on more than one occasion that learning to aim should be a lifelong pursuit. I agree. I miss balls every day that I practice or play...The day I decide I will no longer consciously try to improve my game will likely be the day I hang it up.

Stan Shuffett

Maybe I'm all alone here, but I certainly don't agree with the part in red. As a matter of fact, I do my best to do the exact opposite of this.

My understanding of the brain may be slightly off, but I do my best to avoid the verbal and analytical parts of my brain while I am playing pool. Instead I try to use the more sensual part of it.

So instead of saying something like:
"Okay, there's the contact point, now I want to aim just to the left of that, and I want to hit it firm to avoid the scratch."

I'll do this:
I'll see the contact point, I'll visualize and feel the proper ball overlap while standing, then I'll adjust a bit thicker or thinner while standing to adjust for english. Then I'll go down on the shot and do my thing.

I do my best to stay away from the verbal stuff and try to focus more on the visuals of the shot and the feel of it. It's not always easy to do but it's always my goal.

I think a similar example could be used for someone using a CTE method. I don’t think they have to talk or analyze their way through it, but instead visualize their way through it.
 

Ratta

Hearing the balls.....
Silver Member
Unconscious aiming? Not hardly but I understand the context. I don't think anyone is going to argrue that aiming consciously in a verbal, analytical type manner is a best practice.
Regardless of how one aims, it is a learned behavior and hopefully an ongoing refinement that becomes more and more subconscious over time.

Research strongly indicates that the more proficient one becomes at a specific skill the less they are able to exlain the intracasies of that skill. That's typical for many pros and is also why many pros choose not to instruct.

Nick Varner has stated in BIlliards Digest on more than one occasion that learning to aim should be a lifelong pursuit. I agree. I miss balls every day that I practice or play...The day I decide I will no longer consciously try to improve my game will likely be the day I hang it up.

Stan Shuffett

Well choosen words by a well knowledged guy- GREAT comment!
Hats off Stan :)
 

cfrandy

AKA: The Road Runner
Silver Member
I think the game is easy and we make it hard.
When I play good pool, it's easy.
When I play good golf, it's easy too!
When I try too hard, it becomes hard.
Aiming is automatic when I play my best.
When I start thinking, the game gets harder.

When I start thinking........I start stinking.

You are so right!
 

cfrandy

AKA: The Road Runner
Silver Member
So what are the secrets to making it automatic? I know its a matter of getting in the zone, but how is that achieved, and how do you not revert back to thinking?

"Pool lends itself to developing unconscious controls PRECISELY because it is artificial. You make the same movements over and over again; you face the same angles repeatedly. The rules are always the same. Basic strategies of play apply in countless situations. If you are to hone your skills to the utmost, all of this needs to become routine-automatic, controlled by brain circuitry that needs no input from consciousness, because no choices need to be made. The more knowledge that becomes unconscious, the freer you are to consider more advanced and subtle possibilities. How do you do that? Practice, practice, practice-but deliberately, and with appropriate conscious controls.
Drills are ideal, if you do them right, for at least two unarguable psychological reasons.
First, when we shoot pool, we use inticate, extensive circuitry evolved in our brains and bodies over thousands, even millions of years. However, there is NO innate 'pool shooting' circuitry. Shooting pool calls into action many different innate circuits, like many different skilled workers called on to build a building. Each brings his skills to the job, but this skills must be coordinated to create something that did not exist before.
We have to teach the many innate neuromuscular circuits how to work together to shoot pool. We can consciously coordinate them, if we want to waste our bandwidth on such matters; or we can build new brain circuits to tell the innate circuits how to work together to shoot effectively. To build new circuits, we need to do the same thing repeatedly, to give the body the right information for building new connections. Our experience, guided by conscious control, orchestrates the innate circuits to work together at the pool table. If we repeat the experience often enough, our nervous sytems builds new circuits to use in future shots. It is as if our brains say, 'if you are going to keep doing this, I'm going to build some shortcuts to take care of it automatically so we don't waste so much attention on it.'
The second reason drills are important in developing new wiring is related to the first. As we have seen, you must consciously calculate how to make your body's circuits work together. Conscious calculation works best if you keep most conditions constant, varying only one (or a few related ones) at a time. You calculate a plan, do it, and get a result; then you do it the same way, with a minor variation, and see what result that gives you. This is how you figure out what your body needs to do to make a shot.
These two reasons fit together. To get the innate circuits to work together, we must first consciously calculate what to do, do it, then correct our motions the next time around to see if it goes better. In conscious calculation, the 'mastermind,' as it were, orchestrates the work of the various discrete brain and muscle circuits. Repetition is critical to find the right orchestration. Then, when you have figured out what to do, you need to do it over and over under conscious control, to give your body the information to build new new circuits. Eventually the new circuits will develope and that particular kind of shot becomes automatic. You have quite literally built new wiring into your nervous system.
To be precise, the shot becomes 'ballistic.' Literally a ballistic motion is one controlled by a neuronal circuit that, once set in motion, completes it's pattern as a routine. Ballistic motions require little conscious effort-trigger them and they run their course. The more conscious, deliberate work you do at drills, the less work you have to do when you need to shoot the shot in a game, and the less likely you are to mess it up. If you program yourself for a specific ballistic motion, it runs its course once you trigger it; thus, if you have built it well, it will succeed."

From the book, "Pleasures of Small Motions" - Mastering The Mental Game of Pocket Billiards. By, Bob Francher, PhD.

I highly recommend YOU read it!
 
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Shaky1

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So what are the secrets to making it automatic? I know its a matter of getting in the zone, but how is that achieved, and how do you not revert back to thinking?

I wish I knew for sure?
All I do know is, if I hit a bad shot, and don't think too much about it (it's going to happen), then go back up to the table and just shoot, I will do better than trying to think about why I missed.
If I start thinking too much about it, I will be out of stroke in a very short time. I will start thinking about where my hands are, my wrist, my aim, my eyes, is my stroke straight, am I looking at the object ball last?
I may as well go home. Stick a fork in me, I'm done.
I only use aiming systems when I'm playing poorly. And I do use them.
I just think that sometimes we make things harder than they need to be and then we wonder why we need another system? I dunno?:embarrassed2:
I think that just using systems might make it harder to get into dead stroke? When you're there you just shoot.
 
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robsnotes4u

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"Pool lends itself to developing unconscious controls PRECISELY because it is artificial. You make the same movements over and over again; you face the same angles repeatedly. The rules are always the same. Basic strategies of play apply in countless situations. If you are to hone your skills to the utmost, all of this needs to become routine-automatic, controlled by brain circuitry that needs no input from consciousness, because no choices need to be made. The more knowledge that becomes unconscious, the freer you are to consider more advanced and subtle possibilities. How do you do that? Practice, practice, practice-but deliberately, and with appropriate conscious controls.
Drills are ideal, if you do them right, for at least two unarguable psychological reasons.
First, when we shoot pool, we use inticate, extensive circuitry evolved in our brains and bodies over thousands, even millions of years. However, there is NO innate 'pool shooting' circuitry. Shooting pool calls into action many different innate circuits, like many different skilled workers called on to build a building. Each brings his skills to the job, but this skills must be coordinated to create something that did not exist before.
We have to teach the many innate neuromuscular circuits how to work together to shoot pool. We can consciously coordinate them, if we want to waste our bandwidth on such matters; or we can build new brain circuits to tell the innate circuits how to work together to shoot effectively. To build new circuits, we need to do the same thing repeatedly, to give the body the right information for building new connections. Our experience, guided by conscious control, orchestrates the innate circuits to work together at the pool table. If we repeat the experience often enough, our nervous sytems builds new circuits to use in future shots. It is as if our brains say, 'if you are going to keep doing this, I'm going to build some shortcuts to take care of it automatically so we don't waste so much attention on it.'
The second reason drills are important in developing new wiring is related to the first. As we have seen, you must consciously calculate how to make your body's circuits work together. Conscious calculation works best if you keep most conditions constant, varying only one (or a few related ones) at a time. You calculate a plan, do it, and get a result; then you do it the same way, with a minor variation, and see what result that gives you. This is how you figure out what your body needs to do to make a shot.
These two reasons fit together. To get the innate circuits to work together, we must first consciously calculate what to do, do it, then correct our motions the next time around to see if it goes better. In conscious calculation, the 'mastermind,' as it were, orchestrates the work of the various discrete brain and muscle circuits. Repetition is critical to find the right orchestration. Then, when you have figured out what to do, you need to do it over and over under conscious control, to give your body the information to build new new circuits. Eventually the new circuits will develope and that particular kind of shot becomes automatic. You have quite literally built new wiring into your nervous system.
To be precise, the shot becomes 'ballistic.' Literally a ballistic motion is one controlled by a neuronal circuit that, once set in motion, completes it's pattern as a routine. Ballistic motions require little conscious effort-trigger them and they run their course. The more conscious, deliberate work you do at drills, the less work you have to do when you need to shoot the shot in a game, and the less likely you are to mess it up. If you program yourself for a specific ballistic motion, it runs its course once you trigger it; thus, if you have built it well, it will succeed."

From the book, "Pleasures of Small Motions" - Mastering The Mental Game of Pocket Billiards. By, Bob Francher, PhD.

I highly recommend YOU read it!

Yea brother, you understand how it works. Congratulations

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk 2
 

scottjen26

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Written by a PhD and not a master level instructor and/or high level player - sorry, but I'll stick with the instructor/player opinion... :)

I get what he's trying to say, and yes it's a great book. But while learning how to aim - and we all have to learn how to aim, adjust for various effects, etc. when starting - it has to be a very conscious effort, whether you are using CTE, ghost ball, etc. After that is ingrained into your conscious only then can it become a subconscious act, and then I do agree that's when you are playing at your highest level. CTE and similar systems still fit into that category since once learned and ingrained the process can be done subconsciously as well.

Scott
 

riedmich

.. dogs' friend ..
Silver Member
Learning how to aim:

The worse your stroke is reproducable the more time and energy you'll have to spend in aiming !!!!! That's the most important factor if it is going about how many balls you can not pocket !!!!!

Do it in which method you want, the principle is always the same: Try and error - aim, stroke - and pocket or not - retry!!! But if you have errors in your stroke and your stroke is inconsistant you can not know and learn about why you didn't pocket a ball - regardless which method you use or if you play english or not. And the only method that works is: Hit the center of the object ball in line of the center of pocket. Not more.

The way to have a reliable and consistant stroke is eyery ones own struggle to fight. Win or loose, but only with a consistant stroke you achieve a better rate of pocketing.

By the way: Pocketing reliably is the easier part of playing pool sucessfully. An efficient positioning strategy is far much more difficult to learn - and this is one of the facts that makes the difference between sucessful players and noname bar-players like me.

But this is just my personal experience.
 

duckie

GregH
Silver Member
Written by a PhD and not a master level instructor and/or high level player - sorry, but I'll stick with the instructor/player opinion... :)

I get what he's trying to say, and yes it's a great book. But while learning how to aim - and we all have to learn how to aim, adjust for various effects, etc. when starting - it has to be a very conscious effort, whether you are using CTE, ghost ball, etc. After that is ingrained into your conscious only then can it become a subconscious act, and then I do agree that's when you are playing at your highest level. CTE and similar systems still fit into that category since once learned and ingrained the process can be done subconsciously as well.

Scott

Just in case you didn't read this part. Go to page 143.

http://books.google.com/books?id=65uK9Qu5JwEC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
 
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