When does equipment make a difference?

Matt_24

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It stuns me that you can get an absolutely great playing cue on the secondary market for same price new POS Meucci, or other, and they still buy the Meucci.

Ken

I know what you're saying Ken....but Meucci's play really good until they fall apart. I've owned and played with tons of different cues over the years. I picked up a new Meucci the other day and hit some balls with it. It played really good. Had a nice taper and balance. My only fear is how long it will last until I need new ferrules, etc. That's what keeps me from buying, but I'm tempted. If you can get one for a few hundred and it lasts a year with no issues, that's a deal.
 

Matt_24

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Even for an LD shaft, you still have to allow for deflection in your aiming process, just not as much. There is absolutely no shaft that has zero deflection when you are striking a round cue ball to the left or right of dead center.

Exactly. People are so wrapped around "squirt" and "deflection".

Every shaft has some squirt. Especially if you like to put a lot of spin on the ball. Low Deflection cues "squirt". Put in the time and you can adjust to anything.

All that matters is that the shaft has a taper you like, a ferrule you like, a tip you like, and the cue has a balance that you like. You can adjust to the rest.
 

Matt_24

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
]I know what you're saying Ken....but Meucci's play really good until they fall apart. I've owned and played with tons of different cues over the years. I picked up a new Meucci the other day and hit some balls with it. It played really good. Had a nice taper and balance. My only fear is how long it will last until I need new ferrules, etc. That's what keeps me from buying, but I'm tempted. If you can get one for a few hundred and it lasts a year with no issues, that's a deal.

I'll add that my father had an old MEUCCI ORIGINAL European series cue from the 80s. He played with that cue for 20 years with NO issues. A great cue. And he was a good player. He bought it with two shafts at the time. It's my favorite cue because it was his, and I really miss him. I still have the cue with both shafts...but I don't play with it. Maybe I'll take it out this weekend and get some new tips put on and give it a run.
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Buy a nice Titlist style cue from a reputable cue maker.

It shouldn’t cost you too much and you’ll probably note the difference right off. When you’re ready for something different you’ll know it. The other thing that’s important equipment-wise are the balls. If you’re playing with mis/matched balls it can be tough to figure whether it’s you or the balls. At a minimum I’d suggest getting your own CB so you eliminate that variable.

Lou Figueroa
 

Matt_24

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Buy a nice Titlist style cue from a reputable cue maker.

It shouldn’t cost you too much and you’ll probably note the difference right off. When you’re ready for something different you’ll know it. The other thing that’s important equipment-wise are the balls. If you’re playing with mis/matched balls it can be tough to figure whether it’s you or the balls. At a minimum I’d suggest getting your own CB so you eliminate that variable.

Lou Figueroa

Excellent point on owning a personal Cue ball! That might be my next purchase.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
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Silver Member
... At a minimum I’d suggest getting your own CB so you eliminate that variable. ...
In many pool halls, that's the wrong way to go.

An LO where I used to play was very proud one evening of the new spotted cue ball he had bought. Problem was, he couldn't draw the ball very well. On closer inspection the cue ball, which was the right size, was about 2 mm larger than the object balls and so considerably heavier. The balls had worn down from a decade of use and nightly polishing.

The LO put his shiny new cue ball away and played with the house cue balls which matched, more or less, the house object balls.
 

Bob Jewett

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.... When (or ever?) should someone interested in improving his or her game, invest in a "good" cue? How do we know when our equipment is holding us back?...
If you want a suggestion on a good cue to start with, I highly recommend this model from McDermott:

http://www.mcdermottcue.com/kit5.php

I went to a supply store that had a table and a bunch of cues, looking for a good cue for a student of mine. This cue hit the ball better than the more expensive cues. I was surprised. Each cue is a little different, so I can't guarantee that the cue you get will hit the ball exactly like the two that I tried in the store, but no other source can guarantee how a particular cue will hit the ball, either.

If you order two of them, McDermott will pay for the shipping. The total will be $140. That's hard to beat. You will also get four pieces of chalk, two scuffers and two chalk holders. And two soft cases. All that for $140.

I have no affiliation with McDermott.
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In many pool halls, that's the wrong way to go.

An LO where I used to play was very proud one evening of the new spotted cue ball he had bought. Problem was, he couldn't draw the ball very well. On closer inspection the cue ball, which was the right size, was about 2 mm larger than the object balls and so considerably heavier. The balls had worn down from a decade of use and nightly polishing.

The LO put his shiny new cue ball away and played with the house cue balls which matched, more or less, the house object balls.


If the ball sets are that far out of whack you’re better off buying your own set of balls and taking them to the pool room.

Lou Figueroa
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
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cheep cheep like a little birdie

If the ball sets are that far out of whack you’re better off buying your own set of balls and taking them to the pool room.

Lou Figueroa



Mentioned it before but I bought a thirty dollar set of balls to cut up. When that project died I took them to the pool hall a couple times. Those thirty dollar balls played far better than the old mismatched sets at the hall.

I think I would recommend new balls to any hall that wants to increase business and hasn't changed them in years. Just getting some scales and rematching ball sets would be a big help.

Hu
 

Bob Jewett

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Does "better" mean something the cue actually does to the ball better?

pj
chgo
In this case it mostly means less squirt. It also felt "solid" and "well balanced" to me, but that is subjective.

Another point is that it's wrapless which is much, much better than some of the wraps on low-end cues or even some high-end cues. Rayon, anyone?
 
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DecentShot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Exactly. The "L" stands for "low". No such thing as a "zero" deflection shaft. Somebody ever figures that trick out they will get rich, quick. Don't think its physically possible.

Ok. But not all LD shafts are the same, not even close. Mine has a U too, for ultra. The chart matters, I imagine having a shaft in the mid range of LD is what people base their opinion on, and they suck.
 

Sealegs50

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've played with a crappy cue at home, don't even know the brand name, can't make a shot, yet switch to an Adams and can make the same shots - In my head or something real?


Years ago, I was looking to buy a pool table. The store owner also had used custom cues for sale. One of the used cues was so much fun to play with that I bought it along with the table. The owner told me "it's all psychological." When I responded "but when I am playing with it, my psychology is really good", he just laughed and walked away.

My point is that if you feel more confident with a particular cue and you can afford it, why worry if it is all in your head? It probably is. Who cares? That cue was the best money I ever spent.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
...It also felt "solid" and "well balanced" to me, but that is subjective.
...but still (maybe even more) important. I beat this horse a lot, but not because I think "objective" qualities are more "real" or better than "subjective" ones - only because the two get mixed up a lot in discussions here.

Another point is that it's wrapless which is much, much better than some of the wraps on low-end cues or even some high-end cues.
I'm a wrapless guy too - because I like the feeling that a loose grip still keeps the cue from sliding through my hand.

pj
chgo
 

7stud

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It stuns me that you can get an absolutely great playing cue on the secondary market for same price new POS Meucci, or other, and they still buy the Meucci.

Ken
Examples? What's the approximate price range you are talking about?
 

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
I know what you're saying Ken....but Meucci's play really good until they fall apart. I've owned and played with tons of different cues over the years. I picked up a new Meucci the other day and hit some balls with it. It played really good. Had a nice taper and balance. My only fear is how long it will last until I need new ferrules, etc. That's what keeps me from buying, but I'm tempted. If you can get one for a few hundred and it lasts a year with no issues, that's a deal.

A year? I got Schmelke's that is over 10 years old and is perfect. It was a $79 cue. Oh, I dropped it a few years ago on concrete taking it out of my case, but I glued the butt with very visible glue lines and it still plays great. It's my bar beater cue. NOBODY and I mean, nobody is gonna steal that from me while playing at a local tourney ;) And like I said, there is no cue on the planet that can make a ball that the old Schelke cannot make :)

Heck, got some cheap $30 house cues that are for guests, that have been in my basement for 20 years. Still not warped. I think OB has a lifetime warranty for their cues. So, a sneaky pete from them is a pretty good deal.
 

td873

C is for Cookie
Silver Member
As with most things in life, there is a minimum that the product should cost in order to ensure that it's not sheer junk. Just to set the table, the "bar" I generally want to eclipse for a two-piece cue is having (at least) the same playability as a house cue. IMO, for two-piece cues, that's bar is around $100. You still have inexpensive materials, but the tolerances are generally better, and the components are not the absolute cheapest for the task.

In terms of making a cue, there are a number of key places where significant corners can be cue making the cue play bad. Poor wood/shaft material is one place. Warped and wobbly shafts are very common in the cheap cue variety. Also, using very cheap / reject plastics for the ferrule and at the joints is prevalent. In terms of manufacturing, using a lot of glue to hold poorly fitting pieces together is another shortcut. For example, cutting a narrow tenon on the end of a shaft and then gluing a crappy fitting ferrule on that can be done very cheaply because it's fast. If you want a more correct a ferrule/tip fit, it takes a little more time, which translates to more money.

At the joint, you can use a very cheap 5/16-14 or 18 brass insert setup to connect the shaft/butt, and use this same type of "glue everything that doesn't fit together"shortcut. It's very fast, pretty cheap, but not very "good." You'll get air pockets and things tend to (literally) fall apart after a short time because of impact. It's easy to have a flat faced joint that's close to "true" on both sides because you're just running a lathe across it quickly.

The butt is harder to screw up as it's just a single piece of wood, but it could be. The net result here might just be noise or a wobble when assembled. You can sometimes save a wobbly cue by facing the joint, but not often when they are very cheap. The materials will be cheap and may not be pretty, but I don't think that matters to playability.

When you get to about $100 production cue, typically the shaft is made more precisely, the ferrule/tip combo is better, the joint is tapped/done correctly, and butt is more solid. Having a correctly done 3/8-10 pin is relatively expensive, if only for the time it takes to drill then tap. If the joint is bored then tapped, it's done even better. (personally, for cue in the $100 range, I'd make sure it's a 3/8-10 as I find them more consistent in cheap cues).

So, connecting a number of posts in this thread:

-for the car analogy, my comment is closer to Hu's original post. If the student has a new-ish mustang, then he's already over the $100 bar. Then you can talk about tightening the nut behind the wheel. But the premise of the thread (as I read it) was whether equipment makes a difference, not whether it makes an incremental difference. For the former question, equipment makes a real difference when talking about a crap-can vs a mustang. Once you get to a modern car/cue that passes the base threshold, then it's a focus on the tip of the cue [i.e., the tires on the car]. The ONLY thing touching the cue ball is the tip. The ONLY thing touching the road is the tire.

- this also relates to the question of whether it shoots "better." Semantics always gets us caught up in the objective vs subjective component of this question. But there is definitely an objective component of whether a cue hits "better." For example, you can shoot with a broom stick, but a cue will shoot "better." You can shoot with a $20 cheapo log-type cue with a piece of leather on it, but a $100 cue will shoot "better." After that $100-ish point, you start to get into the subjective area of whether the cue is "better." Expensive low deflection shafts, unique joint pins, decorated cues, etc. They all add value to the cue, but they may (or may not) add performance to an individual. As noted many times, the old masters used what they had.

-one more example: you can take a one piece Dufferin off the wall and it'll shoot just fine. Probably pretty good. If you want to convert that into a good 2-piece cue, it will still take about $100 in equipment and time. Maybe a little less for a very proficient cue maker, but not much. [have you ever seen a conversion for less than a few hundred bucks?]

In sum, IMO equipment does make a difference, but that's only to get over the minimum bar. After that, it's like having a Porsche GT3 instead of Mustang. They both get you 'round the track, but one costs more money. And, IMO, having an ornate cue that plays just as good as a house cue is why you pay extra $$ for a high end cue.

-td
 
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fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
Never seen a pic of any of the HOF players like Mosconi, Crane, Miz etc. playing with ANYTHING that wasn't the best at the given time. Every time someone asks on here about getting a cue people chime in with "well, get a Schmelke". They do make a good cue for the money(i own one myself) but there IS better stuff out there. If you've got the $$ and having nice stuff appeals to you then by all means get a killer cue. Don't worry what any one else says.

How many of the top current players that are sure to be future hall of fame inductees shoot with Searings, Black Boars, Tasc, etc?? Seems like many are sponsored by companies that I would say make good cues but probably not great cues.
 

DecentShot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How many of the top current players that are sure to be future hall of fame inductees shoot with Searings, Black Boars, Tasc, etc?? Seems like many are sponsored by companies that I would say make good cues but probably not great cues.

I believe perhaps a shift has happened. The names you mentioned are collector cues not high performance cues, people used to think they were the same thing, they are now two completely different things, except maybe for SouthWest.
 
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