Aiming Systems - The End Justifies the Means

ENGLISH! · Oct 3, 2012

dr_dave said:
My post was in response to the "unique and advanced techniques" mentioned in Neil's post above (in bold). These techniques are obviously not generally-recommended "best practices," even though they are (or have been) used quite successfully by some top pros.

I'm sorry if you missed my joke ... or if I offended anybody.

Regards,
Dave

Dr. Dave,

You certainly did not offend me.

I guess I got caught up in reading all of the discourse & thought you were becoming a full fledged defector instead of simply being a voice of reason.:wink:

I thought you were throwing all of the time & effort you spent to learn all that you have out of the window & were ready to become a total feel player.:wink:

In hindsight, I'm glad that you did not, because I don't want my technical questions answered with, 'just feel it'.:wink:

Regards,
RJ aka Rick

PS Thanks again for all that do.

lfigueroa · Oct 4, 2012

Living Legend said:
lol , the above bold made me laugh coming from Lou :grin:

It amazes me that you are still here and get away with this kind of stuff. Somewhat obviously -- apparently to everyone but the mods -- you post exactly like Champ. Since Mr. Wilson will not do it, I will allow you to join the Champ ID by permanently visiting my Ignore bin.

Lou Figueroa

lfigueroa · Oct 4, 2012

ENGLISH! said:
PJ,

Thanks for indulging me.

During the course of my 46 yrs. of playing experience I have seen a 'few' guys twisting their cue & I schrugged it off for the same reasons you relay.

After hearing CJ 'explain' it & his 'perception' of it, I went to the table & experimented with it. I understand his 'perceptions' & have seen first hand the results.

Regardless of the actual physics of what causes the results, I'm putting this, new to me, technique in my tool box for further experimentation & implementation when I feel it applicabale.

Thanks again for your indulgance.
Best Regards,
RJ

PS As for 'exactly', I did know know science considered any differential as 'silly'.

But, but... what if the twist, or pivot, or swarp, or whatever is just a particular player's correction -- conscious or unconscious -- of a set up flaw and all the "technique" is doing is correcting?

Lou Figueroa
there is
no secret sauce
in pool

dr_dave · Oct 4, 2012

ENGLISH! said:
Dr. Dave,

You certainly did not offend me.

I guess I got caught up in reading all of the discourse & thought you were becoming a full fledged defector instead of simply being a voice of reason.:wink:

I thought you were throwing all of the time & effort you spent to learn all that you have out of the window & were ready to become a total feel player.:wink:

In hindsight, I'm glad that you did not, because I don't want my technical questions answered with, 'just feel it'.:wink:

I fully understand and acknowledge that top-level pool requires an incredible amount of "feel." All of the following must be judged by "feel:"

- the exact line of aim required for a given shot.
- speed control
- the tip position and speed necessary to create a stop or stun shot when required
- the tip position and speed appropriate to create the necessary amount of draw on a given shot (and to control the draw distance accurately)
- the exact path and direction the cue ball follow after a hit for a wide range of draw and follow shots at different angles and speeds
- the amount of sidespin required for a given shot and position requirements
- how much to adjust aim for squirt, swerve, and throw, where appropriate
- effects of ball/cloth/cushion/slate conditions.
- how tight the pockets on a table play, and how much they can be cheated in each direction.
- how much cushion rebound angle changes with speed, spin, angle, and conditions with kick and bank shots.
- choosing the best (and most strategic) shot in a given situation based on the strengths and weaknesses of both the player and the opponent
- the effects of cue elevation on a shot
- etc.! etc.! etc.!

Now, I still believe people can develop "feel" and "intuition" for many of these (any other) things faster and better by understanding some concepts and knowing some useful pool tips, "gems," and "secrets". Lots of practice and experience is also important.

You can't play pool without "feel," but "feel" can benefit a lot from understanding.

ENGLISH! said:
PS Thanks again for all that do.

You're welcome ... and thank you for the positive feedback.

Regards,
Dave

ENGLISH! · Oct 4, 2012

lfigueroa said:
But, but... what if the twist, or pivot, or swarp, or whatever is just a particular player's correction -- conscious or unconscious -- of a set up flaw and all the "technique" is doing is correcting?

Lou Figueroa
there is
no secret sauce
in pool

You could very well be correct. That is why I discounted it in the past. It was CJ's 'perception' & description that convinced me to give it a try.

Although I doubt it is a 'flaw' in CJ's case as he is aware of the difference & uses it other than his normal stroke.

It will not be as you state for me as well for the reasons I just mentioned for CJ.

It is merely a diffferent technique that allows one to have a different perception & stroke to get results that can also be obtained by more conventional methods. When one 'chooses' to use which is up to the one shooting the shot.

It's just another specialty tool in the tool box similiar to the jump shot.

Best Reagards,
RJ

ENGLISH! · Oct 4, 2012

What a concept!

Dr. Dave's post #324.

A blend of physics knowledge with feel & experience. What a concept!

Very good post Doc!

Kudoes,
RJ

Living Legend · Oct 4, 2012

Don’t you think knowing the correct technique for a particular shot trumps having to actually know anything about the physics of a certain shot. I think feel and experience make knowing the physics of a shot, unnecessary.

Neil · Oct 4, 2012

ENGLISH! said:
Dr. Dave's post #324.

A blend of physics knowledge with feel & experience. What a concept!

Very good post Doc!

Kudoes,
RJ

I just have to ask.... previously you said you haven't learned anything on here except from CJ in the four months you have been here. Now, you are amazed by something that has been said on here countless times by many posters. Do you actually read other posts much, or do you just make posts?? How can you possibly be on here for four months and not learn anything??

Neil · Oct 4, 2012

Living Legend said:
Don’t you think knowing the correct technique for a particular shot trumps having to actually know anything about the physics of a certain shot. I think feel and experience make knowing the physics of a shot, unnecessary.

Nope. Say you want to draw at an angle, would you rather just guesstimate it, or now exactly how to get the cb down a certain line? That's just one example of many.

CJ Wiley · Oct 4, 2012

This is too much for our conscious mind to calculate so there must be a system

Living Legend said:
Don’t you think knowing the correct technique for a particular shot trumps having to actually know anything about the physics of a certain shot. I think feel and experience make knowing the physics of a shot, unnecessary.

Physics basically describes what the results of the given shot produce. Geometry tells of the angles of the shot and the path the balls take that also produce angles. This is too much for our conscious mind to calculate so there must be a system used to simplify these factors. This is the most important question "how do I develop a system that works for myself to produce the effects needed to elevate my Game where I would find more enjoyment?" CLICK PICTURE FOR MORE ON THE SCIENCE OF POOL

ENGLISH! · Oct 4, 2012

Living Legend said:
Don’t you think knowing the correct technique for a particular shot trumps having to actually know anything about the physics of a certain shot. I think feel and experience make knowing the physics of a shot, unnecessary.

Mike,

I tend to agree for a very high percentage of shots. But for some shots that are rarely shot or for position other than 'normal', knowing the physics CAN be helpful in determining how to choose to shoot the shot (a different way than normal) mostly for position reasons.

Like a jump shot it is good to have in your tool box even though you may not use it very often.

Regards,
RJ

ENGLISH! · Oct 4, 2012

Neil said:
I just have to ask.... previously you said you haven't learned anything on here except from CJ in the four months you have been here. Now, you are amazed by something that has been said on here countless times by many posters. Do you actually read other posts much, or do you just make posts?? How can you possibly be on here for four months and not learn anything??

Minimum number of characters!

Patrick Johnson · Oct 4, 2012

Living Legend said:
Don’t you think knowing the correct technique for a particular shot trumps having to actually know anything about the physics of a certain shot. I think feel and experience make knowing the physics of a shot, unnecessary.

Shooting by feel means you already know "the physics of" the shot (how it works in the physical world). You might have learned consciously or unconsciously, but either way you've learned and internalized how the shot works physically - that's all "the physics" is.

Don't let the word "physics" scare you away from thinking about the physical details of pool - it's not complicated or hard and it's useful for learning how to play best.

pj
chgo

Living Legend · Oct 4, 2012

Patrick Johnson said:
Shooting by feel means you already know "the physics of" the shot (how it works in the physical world). You might have learned consciously or unconsciously, but either way you've learned and internalized how the shot works physically - that's all "the physics" is.

Don't let the word "physics" scare you away from thinking about the physical details of pool - it's not complicated or hard and it's useful for learning how to play best.

pj
chgo

Makes sense and i was kind of thinking that too.

CJ Wiley · Oct 4, 2012

Geometry of the Game that is the vital to aiming,aligning and shot making

Living Legend said:
Makes sense and i was kind of thinking that too.

The physics of pool hasn't been a big factor for most players to understand consciously, but it is VERY important to know that if you hit the left side of the cue ball it will deflect right and if you hit the right side it will go left.....and if you spin the cue ball it will curve back in the opposite direction that it deflects. One thing (imho) players MUST develop is a speed and stroke that makes the cue ball deflect and spin back EXACTLY the same amount on a full table shot. This teaches a lot in the process of perfecting it about what the speed and spin are actually doing. Chances are most strokes are slightly different and without experiencing this for yourself there's no one that can do it for you.

With that said, it's the Geometry of the Game that is the vital to aiming,aligning and shot making. A Player must understand how to "Create" angles to play their best. This is done visually, but without getting into the proper body position relative to the shot and the eyes there's no way a player can do this for hours consistently. Creativity is the most rewarding and the most fun part of playing pocket billiards for pure enjoyment.

Living Legend · Oct 4, 2012

This is how i see your game from reading your posts, Cj. You learned to simplify the game of pool in your mind and that you try and make all shots similar and repeatable. I think you try to play everything at the same speed and keep your shot angles all similar and this give you total control over the table. This is how you crush people, play for hours, only miss a few shots without the stress of the match getting to you.

The bold is the biggest difference between you and almost everyone on this board

JB Cases · Oct 4, 2012

dr_dave said:
I fully understand and acknowledge that top-level pool requires an incredible amount of "feel." All of the following must be judged by "feel:"

- the exact line of aim required for a given shot.
- speed control
- the tip position and speed necessary to create a stop or stun shot when required
- the tip position and speed appropriate to create the necessary amount of draw on a given shot (and to control the draw distance accurately)
- the exact path and direction the cue ball follow after a hit for a wide range of draw and follow shots at different angles and speeds
- the amount of sidespin required for a given shot and position requirements
- how much to adjust aim for squirt, swerve, and throw, where appropriate
- effects of ball/cloth/cushion/slate conditions.
- how tight the pockets on a table play, and how much they can be cheated in each direction.
- how much cushion rebound angle changes with speed, spin, angle, and conditions with kick and bank shots.
- choosing the best (and most strategic) shot in a given situation based on the strengths and weaknesses of both the player and the opponent
- the effects of cue elevation on a shot
- etc.! etc.! etc.!

Now, I still believe people can develop "feel" and "intuition" for many of these (any other) things faster and better by understanding some concepts and knowing some useful pool tips, "gems," and "secrets". Lots of practice and experience is also important.

You can't play pool without "feel," but "feel" can benefit a lot from understanding.

You're welcome ... and thank you for the positive feedback.

Regards,
Dave

A lot of these things can be done systematically. For example our friend from across the sea Ekkes has videos up somewhere where he can put the cue ball precisely anywhere on the table using his own method of offset and tips of spin based on distance. His method is very precise and repeatable.

And of course you and I disagree about whether it's possible to find the exact shot line without feel. I think that it is using many of the systems being discussed here.

Everything you listed has a way to calculate if you spend the time to figure it out. Pat Johnson put up a chart with 27 cut angles based on 4.5" pockets with the tolerances. You put this chart on your website. The same chart can be used with any pocket size with the tolerances adjusted. Based on the center pocket measurement the allowable offset from center which allows the ball to be made is easy enough to figure and measure using the tip of the cue as a tool. The width of the tip can be used as a fairly accurate gauge.

You yourself have come up with a way to use a peace sign as a method of measuring tangent paths. Earlier you put up a link to a video which shows the "rule" for bringing the cue ball through the center of the table. That is a systematic way of looking at position play.

So the point is that when you use the word "feel" I think you should put a qualifier on it and say that feel can be anything on the spectrum from hitting a ball with very little idea what's going to happen all the way to a highly developed experience based on trial and error AND system rules that work consistently.

In my opinion at the end of the day ANYTHING a human does is by "feel" because we have to translate input into action. But how good or consistent we are depends mostly on how well trained we are and how experienced we are. Sometimes the skill combined with the use of good systems reduces feel to the point of practical nonexistence. At that point the only feeling is one of complete confidence when playing as opposed to feelings of uncertainty.

CJ Wiley · Oct 4, 2012

Paradoxically, Pool is easy to make difficult, and difficult to make easy.

Living Legend said:
This is how i see your game from reading your posts, Cj. You learned to simplify the game of pool in your mind and that you try and make all shots similar and repeatable. I think you try to play everything at the same speed and keep your shot angles all similar and this give you total control over the table. This is how you crush people, play for hours, only miss a few shots without the stress of the match getting to you.

The bold is the biggest difference between you and almost everyone on this board

Pocket Billiards can be very complicated if you make it that way, but once you discover the systems to playing well it becomes simple. After all, the only thing you really have to do is hit a round ball straight with a stick. :groucho:

Paradoxically, Pool is easy to make difficult, and difficult to make easy.
If I didn't understand these things at the level I do reading a lot of these forum comments would confuse me.

I would suggest to those that read this stuff to just be careful not to let anything get in the way of creativety in the Game. To me, since I'm a musician, it's like reading music and playing by ear. To be well rounded you need to learn to do both, and you still need to play with feel, creativity and passion. The smartest guy in this forum may be the worst player....it's ironic isn't it?.:wink: 'The Game is the Teacher'

tatqoo · Oct 5, 2012

cjssecrets4u2 said:
To me, since I'm a musician, it's like reading music and playing by ear. To be well rounded you need to learn to do both, and you still need to play with feel, creativity and passion.

Thank you CJ for that sequence. Simply brilliant.

CJ Wiley · Oct 5, 2012

"Calibrating a Connection System"

JB Cases said:
A lot of these things can be done systematically. For example our friend from across the sea Ekkes has videos up somewhere where he can put the cue ball precisely anywhere on the table using his own method of offset and tips of spin based on distance. His method is very precise and repeatable.

And of course you and I disagree about whether it's possible to find the exact shot line without feel. I think that it is using many of the systems being discussed here.

Everything you listed has a way to calculate if you spend the time to figure it out. Pat Johnson put up a chart with 27 cut angles based on 4.5" pockets with the tolerances. You put this chart on your website. The same chart can be used with any pocket size with the tolerances adjusted. Based on the center pocket measurement the allowable offset from center which allows the ball to be made is easy enough to figure and measure using the tip of the cue as a tool. The width of the tip can be used as a fairly accurate gauge.

You yourself have come up with a way to use a peace sign as a method of measuring tangent paths. Earlier you put up a link to a video which shows the "rule" for bringing the cue ball through the center of the table. That is a systematic way of looking at position play.

So the point is that when you use the word "feel" I think you should put a qualifier on it and say that feel can be anything on the spectrum from hitting a ball with very little idea what's going to happen all the way to a highly developed experience based on trial and error AND system rules that work consistently.

In my opinion at the end of the day ANYTHING a human does is by "feel" because we have to translate input into action. But how good or consistent we are depends mostly on how well trained we are and how experienced we are. Sometimes the skill combined with the use of good systems reduces feel to the point of practical nonexistence. At that point the only feeling is one of complete confidence when playing as opposed to feelings of uncertainty.

Does Ekkes have a web site that explains what you're saying? I'm not familiar with him.....and yes, the sense of "feel" is a process that can be trained through an understanding of how the body/eyes and cue work together. This is what I refer to as "Calibrating a Connection System".

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