Mr 600

xradarx said:

There was no mention of the so-called unbiased eight witnesses to this feat. Were they introduced prior to the start of the run? Is there evidence of their presence, on the same film, during the entire 4 hour 7 minute run? Were they employees of the billiard parlor. The billiard parlor didn't open for customers until the run was already three hours in progress. We still only have two peoples' hearsay evidence of this 626 ball run. They were both equally biased in pursuit of this record. One being JS and the other being the rack man/backer Just wondering, maybe it will all come out in the wash!

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It is recorded on video.

DynoDan said:

In my experience, it gets slower as dirt/chalk accumulates, and then faster as it wears. Of course, nothing affects speed as much as humidity. Check out the record attempt videos of John playing on 760 at that room near the ocean, then watch tournament videos played on new 860 during the winter, in forced hot-air heated northern rooms.

BTW: I wonder if Willie’s playing style was influenced by the cloth/equipment that was most common back in the 40s/50s? Slow-rolling shots on fast cloth is most likely a modern development (?), and can influence your stroke & pattern choices.

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Yeah that's true. I remember for a week or two after it was new, it was crazy fast. Then it broke in and got slower. Then it gradually sped up.

It wasn't just fast, it was so slidey, you'd think you could e.g. do a draw route like this, but instead the cue ball slid sideways much more than you expected. --> https://pad.chalkysticks.com/45207.png

I'm kind of torn whether fast cloth makes 14.1 generally easier or not.

The balls spread better, but I think slow cloth gives more room for speed control errors
and makes it easier to hold balls, while fast slidey cloth is very touchy and finicky,
it's so easy to blow a position window or do that couple of extra turns that force you
to switch to "plan B" because you didn't fall on that problem ball you really wanted to pick off.

CreeDo said:

Yeah that's true. I remember for a week or two after it was new, it was crazy fast. Then it broke in and got slower. Then it gradually sped up.

It wasn't just fast, it was so slidey, you'd think you could e.g. do a draw route like this, but instead the cue ball slid sideways much more than you expected. --> https://pad.chalkysticks.com/45207.png

I'm kind of torn whether fast cloth makes 14.1 generally easier or not.

The balls spread better, but I think slow cloth gives more room for speed control errors
and makes it easier to hold balls, while fast slidey cloth is very touchy and finicky,
it's so easy to blow a position window or do that couple of extra turns that force you
to switch to "plan B" because you didn't fall on that problem ball you really wanted to pick off.

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Sort of makes you wish you had room for two tables. One (760) for summer play, and one (860HR) for winter. I can’t decide between CB control, or pack spread. I sometimes play on a GC covered with tightly-stretched carom cloth. If I played on damp 860 the day before, whitey has a tendency to get away and find a pocket.
P.S. Another thing not discussed is whether/how climate change effects tightness of the cloth (and thus speed), and to what degree stretching/installation might involve that? Some especially slow tables covered with 860HR (top rated pro mechanic instal) I played on late spring, seemed to bunch slightly when I placed my bridge hand.

jimmyg said:

While John certainly accomplished an amazing feat, one that every serious pool player can appreciate and admire, unfortunately it was done in an era quite different than the time when Willie ran his 526. Willie was a household name in his time and pool was enjoying an amazing national boom, one likely never to be repeated. He made guest appearances on TV, was in the box office hit, The Hustler", and was constantly written up in the major newspapers and sports magazines, he was actually a "star". Times are different and probably no one other than a real pool player knows John's name.

Only a diehard straight pool player, of which there aren't many, would enjoy and appreciate watching his complete run, let alone all of his failed attempts.

While most of us wish him the best, both personally and professionally, in all honesty his structured accomplishment, while profoundly astounding, to many, still pales that of Willie's.

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I think one important difference is that Willie’s record run wasn’t necessarily intentional. Just another day at work for him, and fate just happened. I think of John’s record much like a guy who climbs the ‘impossible’ face of Mt. Everest without oxygen. Any tourist who can hold on to the guide rope and carry a tank can ‘summit’ now, so where is the glory? Regardless of whether pool ever becomes popular again, if there is interest in the ‘annals of personal accomplishment’ (and since I suspect no one else is likely to beat his record anytime soon), his video may have a broader connotation to future generations.

Bob Jewett said:

Although I would prefer that everyone check that issue of BD for personal reasons :wink:, here is a clearer image:

View attachment 527292

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Who are the other people that signed this without a notary besides Johns family member and the ball racker and their family member?

Are any of these people paid impartial observers?

The damage is done, I'm just wondering how bad it is...

Exhibition high run v Tournament high run

The BCA statement says "exhibition high run".
Does that mean it is different record from a high run in a tournament ?
Is a tournament high run more prestigious than exhibition high run ? :smile:

Balls said:

Who are the other people that signed this without a notary besides Johns family member and the ball racker and their family member?

Are any of these people paid impartial observers?

The damage is done, I'm just wondering how bad it is...

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The other signatures are regulars there at Easy Street

Balls said:

Who are the other people that signed this without a notary besides Johns family member and the ball racker and their family member?



Are any of these people paid impartial observers?



The damage is done, I'm just wondering how bad it is...

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I honestly can't believe your doubt. It was taped. People have watched the tape and verified it. Do you really think they are so organized that they got all those people plus everyone else who wandered in and out of the place plus the camera guy and the guys who watched the tape in on this elaborate scam yet they can't manage to get the video ready for release in less than 6 weeks.

Maybe the team that faked the moon landing took time out from their planning the 50th anniversary celebration to help pull this off?

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logical said:

I honestly can't believe your doubt. It was taped. People have watched the tape and verified it. Do you really think they are so organized that they got all those people plus everyone else who wandered in and out of the place plus the camera guy and the guys who watched the tape in on this elaborate scam yet they can't manage to get the video ready for release in less than 6 weeks.

Maybe the team that faked the moon landing took time out from their planning the 50th anniversary celebration to help pull this off?

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I think they are busy working the president over...

So. The list grows for people with a vested interest.

https://www.abc.ca.gov/licensing/license-lookup/single-license/?RPTTYPE=12&LICENSE=591669

You will find FOREST, JAMES H JR (CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER)

So let's see,
Johns wife
The Ball racker that lost to Mosconni
The Ball rackers wife
The owner of the business

That leaves 4 names of guys that are regulars. So some guy said.

LOL

As far as the video goes, no I don't have have a lot of faith in a couple old guys trying to figure out if the video was edited.. I have enough experience in video production to say now as an onlooker, wow can they ever do some crazy stuff. Scene detection is an automatic thing in a lot of cases. A kid out of school with a "video" degree and some pro experience is the type of person that should be reviewing it.

Or Guinness. but I'm guessing they wont accept it due to the lack of cameras and observers and so on.

I mean seriously people! Pool has a great hustling reputation, Try to live up to it at least.

speedy5963 said:

The other signatures are regulars there at Easy Street

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They are 'regulars' at the pool room???????????
Oh say it isn't so.
Don't you understand if that is the case they "just HAD" to get together and conspire to lie about the entire thing happening.
(of course the ones who watched Mosconi do his thing weren't 'regulars' so that makes everything jake.)
Some of these naysayers are totally absurd.........:barf:

RiverCity said:

5 Hour energy drink users.

Scum of the fooking earth.

They would steal the pennies off a dead mans eyes to get their fix.

They would rob their own grandmother just for a sip of that sweet sweet caffeine shot.

How they are allowed to cheat by drinking those little bottles before a tournament is beyond me.

Its worse than the opioid epidemic we face. 5 Hour Energy is a scourge on humanity, much less pool.

I was out driving around earlier this evening, I saw 6 cop cars surrounding this one guy, clenching one of those familiar little bottles in his hand, threatening to drink it if they got any closer. Spoiler, they had to shoot him dead because he already drank 2 of those poisonous little berry flavored boosters.

If we as a society cannot rid the game of pool from energy shots, and herbal supplements that are sold on convenience store counters nationwide..... We are fooked. :duck:

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Hahah and a lol for character limit.

Where I'm leaving it and perhaps the business side of pool.

So on the list is
Felicity Schmidt, Johns wife
Douglas Desmond, The Ball racker that lost to Mosconni
Cecelia Desmond, The Ball rackers wife
James Forest, The owner of the business

This is fine, we just need that impartial person still.

Josiah Sinkler
https://www.pictame.com/user/jsinkler831/1571508336
Looks like a regular and maybe a darts fan more then pool.

Fred Lenz
https://www.linkedin.com/in/frederick-lenz-193b9665/
Works at the local grocery store.

David Lota doesn’t seem to exist.
https://www.whitepages.com/name/Dav...terey,+CA&q=David+Lota&search_type=historical

Ian Locklar doesn’t seem to exist either.
https://www.whitepages.com/name/Ian-Locklar/Monterey-CA?l=Monterey+CA&q=Ian+Locklar

Maybe they are the impartial observers or judges??

So nobody without a direct interest, people with vested interests and no notary to know if the other two guys are even real.

So now we are suppose to go frame by frame through a 4 hour video looking for fouls and edits and anything that might disqualify him without missing things that even Efren has done as recently mentioned here. And lets face it with special editing today it could look like anything and nobody would ever know. It is in the area of those moon landing studios as well. (That’s a joke). But seriously, with a couple months of video to work with it wouldn’t be a problem to fake a video.

The Mosconni certification with lot’s of non vested people was presented to the BCA who recorded it. In this case the BCA is acting as a judge and feels they can certify based solely on what the two of them think they saw in a video and knowing he was potentially using 5 hour to help his game.

My billiards marking plan really doesn’t need the bad publicity and honestly after some of the stuff I’ve read here, I have mixed emotions about bringing people to billiards. I know this, I would be better off just making a nice donation to the charity I have in mind every year rather then spending time with this nonsense. I see a spike in another market now and well and there just isn’t much money here. But the charity which we all care about could do well over the years and actually increase donations annually.

After working on this for nearly a year I'm down to 45 days till the potential launch and nobody helping and no money to throw away. decisions, decisions...

Balls said:

.....My billiards marking plan really doesn’t need the bad publicity and honestly after some of the stuff I’ve read here, I have mixed emotions about bringing people to billiards. I know this, I would be better off just making a nice donation to the charity I have in mind every year rather then spending time with this nonsense. I see a spike in another market now and well and there just isn’t much money here. But the charity which we all care about could do well over the years and actually increase donations annually.

After working on this for nearly a year I'm down to 45 days till the potential launch and nobody helping and no money to throw away. decisions, decisions...

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It's a lot less fun making fun of someone when they don't understand it's happening.

If is is a sham, it's about the most illconcieved one ever. If he has the skills to pull off a 12 person fake pool run he would be much further ahead to do an Oceans Eleven style diamond heist. His gang of 12 are going to net about $238 each.

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a few things

xradarx said:

An exhibition usually takes place in front of an audience. Easy Street Billiards business hours are 1:00Pm - 2:00AM daily. A statement was presented that the run started at 10:00AM and finished approximately four hours and seven minutes later @ 2:07PM. Customers of the business likely would not have shown up until the run was three hours into progress. Two BCA Officers, condoning this doesn't make it an exhibition. Maybe they only got the fake news and not the entire story of this attempt at a world record. At best this would have been a practice session in front of family and friends, not impartial/unbiased observers.

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The format of john's attempts kept any exhibition pressure off any of his attempts including the final one since obviously he had no way of knowing it wasn't just one more in his string of attempts. There is considerable more pressure to perform giving an exhibition. You have one chance to perform or make an ass out of yourself. I have given a few in other areas, the pressure is real. With all eyes on me, I felt more pressure in the few exhibitions I gave than when I competed.

Another minor but significant detail, everybody keeps talking about five hour energy. That day and for several days before john was using a supplement with massive amounts of B-12. Longer term B-12 gives you energy. Short term it mellows you out, further helping depress the yips and pressure when he approached the record. Purely accidental but I think john took the supplement needed to get there, unintentionally. Five Hour Energy would have increased his nerves, this stuff had the opposite effect.

As for the video, video has reached the same level as photography now, it can be impossible to tell what is real and what is fake just viewing it. Many years ago there was something that filled in the frames of a cartoon. You drew the character in one position, then in another much different position, hit enter, and the computer drew all of the frames in between to make a smooth transition. They can do the same thing with film now from what I have read. Video really isn't proof of anything anymore. There are excellent fake videos of politicians and such, look 100% real. Probably will become a major issue with somebody or another in the 2020 elections. Did john cheat the video? I don't know or care. However the technology is readily available so video alone should not be proof of anything today.

The world has gotten stupid. An e-mailed signature isn't accepted, a faxed signature is. FAX is short for facsimile. The signature can be copied from anywhere. With the state of electronic play today, records need to be witnessed and videoed. The record is accepted as a BCA exhibition record despite not being shot in an exhibition. Pretty much end of story as far as most are concerned. If it is good enough for the BCA, it is good enough for them.

Hu

I suppose I understand if someone isn't convinced it happened because they weren't there to see it...that's reasonable if they feel the need to be 100% sure.

What bothers me, and I guess it's just a sign of the internet times we live in, is people jumping beyond basic scepticism and flat out accusing the man of cheating/lying/conspiring/fabricating when there is zero evidence that any of that took place. This is a person we are talking about, a man with a family, a professional in the sport we care about...not some faceless bureaucracy. Oh, and a dozen other men and women you are publicly suggesting are also criminals.
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The whole idea of a faked video is asinine. I get that the one dude that likes brining it up is obviously trolling but do any real people actually think it’s possible? I’ll take JS at his word, with or without video and signed this and that...but I wanna see it because I like high runs and apparently this one is the highest visible.