Is Pool Appropriately Priced to Flourish?

336Robin

Multiverse Operative
Silver Member
Many of us wonder why Pool isnt as popular as it was in other times and we talk about different ways to make the game more popular.

One of the things is economics and prices dont generally go down. When I play I like to play awhile and this makes me wonder if its not largely a matter of pricing.

How much do you spend each week on pool? How much do you think is reasonable for a person to spend on pool?


Maybe this is a big detractor with the popularity of the game. Maybe the level of interest in dampened by the fact that people might see it as a drain on an already strained income.

Does your pool room offer a value to its regular customers or is it just whatever the rate is and that is it?
 

oldschool1478

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The hourly fee, poor table maintenance, and cigarette smoke,
is what drove me to buying my own Diamond.
I have my friends over, and rarely play in poolrooms anymore.
When I do, I usually leave wishing I hadn't.
 

bdorman

Dead money
Silver Member
Granted, I'm not your typical player. I didn't take up the game until age 59 and "my" table is at our community center, i.e. free play. I probably play about 25 hours a week.

If I had to pay for it, I'd top out at about $25 a week. So, to get the same amount of table-time, I'd have to find a room with $1/hr rate.
 

Quesports

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well Robin you've asked a loaded question, the cost of playing time is all over the map. Then there is the tables condition, the friendliness of the owner and his employees to consider along with other considerations. Since you asked about table time, my current location is the Chicago suburbs. Most places that open during the day have a daytime special that is very reasonable and at a certain hour the cost changes to the nightly charges. I would say most places are fairly reasonable in my area.
 

smashmouth

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
here's a cost saving tip......

find a bar table and simply work on cue ball drills without object balls, also, for pocketing drills, use an object ball to pocket the cue ball

some bars might frown on this, most...would not even know or care

I've logged hundreds of practice hours for the cost of a single game

pool is priced fine, scores of youngsters hit the "trendy" type rooms on weekends at $20+ per hr

if you're serious about the game, lots of rooms have all you can play specials, not to mention it's very cheap to get an inexpensive table and log some real practice hours...and yes you can even do that in very limited space by simply getting a ball return table and propping it up against the wall, yes actual games might suck but you can still practice all the shots

hell u can even practice your stroke without a pool table, just like a golf swing

the cost of this game has rarely made it prohibitive to those serious about it
 

Baby Huey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I own a pool room in Ventura Ca. and I think I charge the right price which is $4.00/hour single player rate. I see the problem as getting youngsters to come in and play. Our current economy has created a greater chasm between have and have nots. No one can afford any extras with their respective budgets. It's tough all around. Many golf courses are closing or seriously hurting and are trying to run specials to attract customers. Kids don't have any loose money and wouldn't spend it on pool if they did. It would take a Minnesota Fats on TV to change the game. Someone who can promote the game internationally and win some SERIOUS MONEY and that is just not going to happen. The prize pools in our tournaments suck and with no TV coverage who cares about pool anyway. Who can rent a 5,000 square foot building, risk their money and offer cheap pool? Not too many me thinks. I am a dying breed and still have the passion for the game and promote it the best I can. But I can tell you it is going to be tougher on those rooms who are trying to promote the game.
 

nobcitypool

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Cost is the problem but I think opposite of the way you think. If you looked at the cost to lease space in an upper scale, high traffic area plus the cost to lease diamond tables, the rates that would have to be charged just to break even ate substantially higher than what people would pay.

Leading 10 tables would be around $1,500 per month. A 9 foot table takes around 300 square feet. At $1.50/square foot, that $450 per table. So your cost for tables alone is $600 per month. If the tables rented out 6 hours per day, that's $3.33 per hour you'd have to charge just to break even. That doesn't include salaries, insurance and overhead costs as well add the additional space you'd have to have for bar, kitchen, office, etc. Real Estate near an up scale mall is probably closer to $3 or more per square foot. And of course, you have to make a profit or why bother? I'm guessing under those circumstances, table time would have to be charged for at $10 to $15 per hour for it to make sense financially.

Let's assume it's $8 per hour. A serious player wanting to play 24 hours per week and picking up half the table cost is looking at $100 per week, $400 per month. How many people, with the means to do that, do you know that would consistently spend that much time there?
 

Bella Don't Cry

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Many of us wonder why Pool isnt as popular as it was in other times and we talk about different ways to make the game more popular.

One of the things is economics and prices dont generally go down. When I play I like to play awhile and this makes me wonder if its not largely a matter of pricing.

How much do you spend each week on pool? How much do you think is reasonable for a person to spend on pool?


Maybe this is a big detractor with the popularity of the game. Maybe the level of interest in dampened by the fact that people might see it as a drain on an already strained income.

Does your pool room offer a value to its regular customers or is it just whatever the rate is and that is it?

Very good question / thread.
I don't own a room so am out of my depth.
------------
On a personal level, I love the game so much I am willing to pay whatever it takes to get my rocks off... :thumb up:

This thread should make interesting reading...
 

smashmouth

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I own a pool room in Ventura Ca. and I think I charge the right price which is $4.00/hour single player rate. I see the problem as getting youngsters to come in and play. Our current economy has created a greater chasm between have and have nots. No one can afford any extras with their respective budgets. It's tough all around. Many golf courses are closing or seriously hurting and are trying to run specials to attract customers. Kids don't have any loose money and wouldn't spend it on pool if they did. It would take a Minnesota Fats on TV to change the game. Someone who can promote the game internationally and win some SERIOUS MONEY and that is just not going to happen. The prize pools in our tournaments suck and with no TV coverage who cares about pool anyway. Who can rent a 5,000 square foot building, risk their money and offer cheap pool? Not too many me thinks. I am a dying breed and still have the passion for the game and promote it the best I can. But I can tell you it is going to be tougher on those rooms who are trying to promote the game.

at one point in my life I would have LIVED at your place for $4 hr
 

m79a

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Where I play in Clarksville Tn it's $3.00 an hr during nomal hrs, until 3:00am. After that $6 an hour. Pretty reasonable I think for well kept Diamond tables.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Many of us wonder why Pool isnt as popular as it was in other times and we talk about different ways to make the game more popular.

One of the things is economics and prices dont generally go down. When I play I like to play awhile and this makes me wonder if its not largely a matter of pricing.

How much do you spend each week on pool? How much do you think is reasonable for a person to spend on pool?


Maybe this is a big detractor with the popularity of the game. Maybe the level of interest in dampened by the fact that people might see it as a drain on an already strained income.

Does your pool room offer a value to its regular customers or is it just whatever the rate is and that is it?

I don't play less due to prices, but it does affect WHEN I play. For example I try to play during the times where rooms have all day or cheaper hourly rates. I also tend to try to find leagues that play in good rooms and also cheaper tournaments which give me several hours of play time for about the price of an hour or two of regular table time.

What mostly affects how long I play is the wife and kids, as I am sure would be the case with many that have families, at least with younger kids or wives that don't play along with them.

I think the #1 thing that keeps people from following the sport is that it's so damn hard to play good enough to make several balls at a time, and when the pros play it looks like they are not making any shots any dope at a bar could not make. Trick shots are popular because at least it's things that regular people or bangers see as hard, not when they watch Buddy Hall shoot a 2 foot long straight in shot 9 times every rack.

Skiing, Tennis, Golf, all have a much higher cost entry to play, especially if you go to private clubs in Tennis or Golf, yet they are a lot more popular in the media and in the general public perseption.
 
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King T

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Theres more math than that...,

Cost is the problem but I think opposite of the way you think. If you looked at the cost to lease space in an upper scale, high traffic area plus the cost to lease diamond tables, the rates that would have to be charged just to break even ate substantially higher than what people would pay.

Leading 10 tables would be around $1,500 per month. A 9 foot table takes around 300 square feet. At $1.50/square foot, that $450 per table. So your cost for tables alone is $600 per month. If the tables rented out 6 hours per day, that's $3.33 per hour you'd have to charge just to break even. That doesn't include salaries, insurance and overhead costs as well add the additional space you'd have to have for bar, kitchen, office, etc. Real Estate near an up scale mall is probably closer to $3 or more per square foot. And of course, you have to make a profit or why bother? I'm guessing under those circumstances, table time would have to be charged for at $10 to $15 per hour for it to make sense financially.

Let's assume it's $8 per hour. A serious player wanting to play 24 hours per week and picking up half the table cost is looking at $100 per week, $400 per month. How many people, with the means to do that, do you know that would consistently spend that much time there?

The money is in the liquor, not the pool time. I worked as a Jack Daniels Rep and pool halls are bars with pool tables, there were plenty of pool halls in Texas making 25K to 55K per month and most, the ones that were run right are still open. You need to bring people in and provide for the players as you can.

Good lighting, good equipment, good tournaments..., the rest is up to the player.
 

King T

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Heres a cost savings tip...,

here's a cost saving tip......

find a bar table and simply work on cue ball drills without object balls, also, for pocketing drills, use an object ball to pocket the cue ball

some bars might frown on this, most...would not even know or care

I've logged hundreds of practice hours for the cost of a single game

pool is priced fine, scores of youngsters hit the "trendy" type rooms on weekends at $20+ per hr

if you're serious about the game, lots of rooms have all you can play specials, not to mention it's very cheap to get an inexpensive table and log some real practice hours...and yes you can even do that in very limited space by simply getting a ball return table and propping it up against the wall, yes actual games might suck but you can still practice all the shots

hell u can even practice your stroke without a pool table, just like a golf swing

the cost of this game has rarely made it prohibitive to those serious about it

Join a league for $25 a week and play for free the rest of the week on the 4x8 tables. Gamble and pay time on the 4.5x9 and tip heavy, put $5 in the juke box and buy a least one drink, make the place glad you came.
 

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
Interesting question.... For years I didn't pay a dime at the local pool room for pool... However I ate there pretty much at least once a day, Bought my Cigarettes there for 2 bucks more a pack than at a convenience store and had adult beverages there on Friday and Saturday nights.... My weekly tab in the place was $300-$400 when everything was added together... There were several others who would come in and play with me on any given night who also would have been counted regulars and would have been spending similar amounts or we would have a few guys that would maybe only come out on Friday or Saturday night and spend $100 or so....

On a good Friday there were so many in the crew that the manager would give us 2 tables side by side as we would have 7-9 people.....

At the time the tables were I think 4 bucks an hour per person and I would play maybe 30 hours a week.. So for me they were giving up $120 an hour to have me in the place which led to my spending and the spending of several other players.... You want a big crowd it's way easier when you start with a crowd.....

In those days the waiting list was full by 7pm on a Friday or Saturday.... Guys would get off work and head there to grab a table as soon as possible or face not getting one... Everyone would be on their cell phones at 5 trying to see who could get there first to grab a table......

All things come to an end tho good or bad..... They brought in a new manager that was a real idiot and proceeded to start running off the regulars... He tried to steal my cue and case the first week he was there but that's a different story but it put him on the wrong side of me out of the gate... They raised the prices on everything and decided the free pool was not needed... They raised it to $10 a table per hour and no discounts period....

The $10 an hour is almost nothing for a group like we had on the weekends but to go out and practice while waiting on people to show up was no longer an option... I get there at 5 and by 7 I had spent $20... In addition to my food and beverage costs.... I stopped going as much... from 5 to 2am was now $90 plus tax... While not a large amount counted against what was spent otherwise it was a pretty bitter pill to swallow based upon how we had been treated in the past....

Since I was not there some of the guys stopped showing up simply because they might show up and not have anyone to jump on the table with.... A $10 an hour the early birds quit showing up on Friday and Saturday and now the waiting lists don't start until well after 9 if they start at all usually the place is a ghost town until 9 now and the tables never fill up..Except on League nghts where they are giving away 7-8 tables to guys who mostly drink soda and don't tip.... People started to develop different habits and alternate forms of entertainment....

This was 3 years ago I guess almost 4 now.... From 1996-2010 I had never paid for pool and I spent a fortune and brought in a fortune all from the use of 1-2 tables... I guarantee we spent more per night than the league players did per table.....

Now I may spend $100 a week about $50 in pool and $50 in food and drink... But the rest of the crowd is gone... On Friday or Saturday I now usually end up playing 1pocket with one of the few newer guys and he will by a sweet tea and get refills all night......

You have to offer percieved value to your customers.... Practice/Daily rates... Discounts based on the amount of revenue a customer generates... Hell had they offered me a 50% discount I likely would have stayed and continued to call people to have them come out and play for the night.... There are 9 phone numbers in my cell phone that are way out of use simply because someone thought they could make a few more dollars a night and in reality it is costing them 1000s.....

You can say they did what they had to and I am just being a disgruntled customer and I would agree aside from the fact that those tables now sit empty most nights and the number of regulars that shoot pool and spend money in addition is down to under a handful....

They have to had to raise prices across the board in attempts to stay in the black... $10 cheese burgers and fries... $6 pints.... Shot of Jack Daniels $8.50... Dozen wings $12.... Pack of smokes $9.... Cigarettes here are about $5.25 at the convenient stores.... They had to raise prices because the number of people dropped signicantly.... And they haven't figured out why..... They went non-smoking to increase business early this year... Wanna guess how that worked out???
 

lost

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Many of us wonder why Pool isnt as popular as it was in other times and we talk about different ways to make the game more popular.

One of the things is economics and prices dont generally go down. When I play I like to play awhile and this makes me wonder if its not largely a matter of pricing.

How much do you spend each week on pool? How much do you think is reasonable for a person to spend on pool?


Maybe this is a big detractor with the popularity of the game. Maybe the level of interest in dampened by the fact that people might see it as a drain on an already strained income.

Does your pool room offer a value to its regular customers or is it just whatever the rate is and that is it?

Is Starbucks priced to flourish?
People pay what they perceive it's worth. Is pool supposed to be different?
 

jmhanson_21

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The price is driven (for the most part) by the pool room owners, and it's not like the pool room owners are getting rich. Obviously, if they were, (meaning table time was being priced higher than the market should bear) there would be more and more pool rooms opening up around the country. In fact, the opposite seems to be true. Aside from general table time pricing, the rest of the industry seems to be growing more and more reasonable. The prices of cues have stayed much the same in recent years, and it's actually easier and more affordable to get a solid playing cue. Production companies have made it possible for most players to get a cue that plays well for what it takes me to fill up my truck's tank a couple of times.

A combination of Ebay and foreign knock-offs of most everything has made it easy to get tip tools and all sorts of pool accessories at huge discounts. With all the rip-off products available to consumers, it's put more pressure on the original manufacturers to compete in the pricing market against their own imitations. A similar phenomenon has occurred with cues, cases, tips, cloth, balls, and tables. The exceptions seem to be a few top brands that have been able to lean on their quality and reputation. For instance, Diamond Billiard tables, Simonis Cloth, and Kamui tips have been able to avoid (for the most part) coming out with B-level products in order to move enough inventory to satisfy themselves. For years we've seen more popular methods of business, such as Brunswick, where the company has decided to offer its products in tiers of quality. Overall, this sort of action has probably hurt their reputation with billiard connoisseurs, but the average public continues to recognize their brand.

With all of the discussion about the popularity of pool, what helps, and what hurts -- I still think the industry hasn't figured out how to properly deal with urbanization. Obviously apartment living is not conducive to pool table owning, which in turn, hurts the game at all levels of production -- tables, lights, cloth, cues, balls, chalk, etc. But it shouldn't necessarily hurt the game. In fact, it should be a catalyst for pool room growth, but people can't play pool if they don't think about playing pool. Right now, pool is not in the subconscious of the average person. Mostly because pool is not on television. As it stands now, pool is an online, pay-per-view sport. As such, it has problems. For instance, I consider myself to be in the top echelon of the pool viewership, but even I am not going to pay $15.00 a day to watch the World 14.1, and straight pool is my favorite game! So if not me, then who the hell will see this stuff? Unfortunately, PPV doesn't usually work unless it's a group-attracting event (UFC, Boxing) or porn (and even that doesn't work very well). I've always thought it would be awesome to have pool room owners buy all of the big PPV tournaments and stream them in their pool halls, but without advertising, which costs money, no one will know it's happening.

Having said all of that, I don't want to be thrown into that group of people who say things like, "what's wrong with pool is [insert un-educated comment]." In fact, I don't think there is anything 'wrong' with pool. I like all of the main games, and can even live with the current versions of their rules, plus the talent is very strong, in my opinion. The equipment is great and the product is exciting. The question for the last decade remains the same -- how can we show this to the rest of the country?
 

BlueCollarBar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I believe that its not what pool is priced for that is hurting the game but the lack of entertainment available within your typical pool hall. I think that if the perceived value of the game and location you are playing it at is higher then the casual player is going to be more inclined to spend the money to play more often and eventually turn into a serious player. As a "pool hall hybrid" owner I am banking on this very theory to make my bar successful and increase the amount of serious players that play the game.

At one point we were all casual players that for one reason or another decided to become more serious about the game. I know that as a casual player I wanted to be somewhere that provided more than just pool as entertainment. i.e. pretty girls, live music, sports on big tv's, etc.

As a more serious player I prefer a more subdued environment but on the weekends I still want to be where the fun is going on and not in some quiet pool hall. I want a place that I can go and watch the big game while still playing or maybe enjoy a live acoustic act thats not so loud that it will effect my concentration.

Now, imagine yourself torn between going and watching the big game on a saturday night or going and playing in a $250 added 8 ball tourney that has a decent field but you know that theres only a couple small tv's you can maybe watch the game on if you happen to be put on the right table for your match. What if there was a place you could go that you could do both? Maybe instead of the game its your girlfriend/wife that doesnt want to sit there and do nothing while you play in the tournament? What if there was an acoustic act playing that she could enjoy while you play?

Just those two examples add perceived value to the game for your serious player and your casual player. Both of the examples also offer something that just your regular non pool playing customer can come and enjoy and possibly end up being converted into a pool player.

I could go on for awhile longer about this but I think that this applies directly to this topic and I hope that more pool hall owners would attempt to take this approach.
 

lakeman77

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Starbucks changed the idea of what a coffee shop is. Perhaps pool needs a different business model as well to grow and thrive.
Mark Wilson has some very interesting thoughts about this and I think he is 100% correct.
Not right or wrong, just is. The world changes.
Complain about Starbucks pricing all you want, they are laughing all the way to the bank.
 

lakeman77

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If Howard Schultz, the CEO of Starbucks, decided to open a pool room, I bet it would thrive.
 

CSykes24

www.coreysykes.com
Silver Member
As someone that is a Pricing Analyst by career, this is definitely not the problem.
 
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