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straightline
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02-15-2020, 06:22 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Sounds good. The other way around isn't working very well.

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Kindly elaborate. I may gotta rite a thesis someday.
  
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02-15-2020, 08:36 PM

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Originally Posted by straightline View Post
Thanks. That's the diagram I was referring to. The point is you get maximum backspin by shooting down on the ball.
...
Do you believe that you get more RPMs for a given stick speed with an elevation of 45 degrees compared to a few degrees for rail clearance? Note that I said a given stick speed and not forward speed of the cue ball.


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jay helfert
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02-15-2020, 08:36 PM

I don't know the physics of it, but in my experience using a narrower tip (say 12mm as opposed to 13mm) allows you to put more extreme english on the cue ball. Maybe it's already been mentioned on here, but I would suggest that by using a narrow tip you can hit lower on the cue ball and draw the ball farther. I speak not from any other base of knowledge but experience. Please correct me if I'm wrong about this.


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jay helfert
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02-15-2020, 08:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Do you believe that you get more RPMs for a given stick speed with an elevation of 45 degrees compared to a few degrees for rail clearance? Note that I said a given stick speed and not forward speed of the cue ball.
I think "backspin" speed is more related to the power of one's stroke. The Three Cushion players who frequently are shooting down on the cue ball can do some amazing things with it. On the other hand the best pool players with the most powerful strokes can draw the ball faster and farther.

Bob, I am responding here to Straighline's comment about getting maximum backspin by shooting down on the cue ball versus shooting horizontally. Again, I think that is directly related to the power of one's stroke and to a lesser degree their technique in hitting the ball.


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straightline
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02-15-2020, 10:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Do you believe that you get more RPMs for a given stick speed with an elevation of 45 degrees compared to a few degrees for rail clearance? Note that I said a given stick speed and not forward speed of the cue ball.
I have small hands. I can't get enough wind up at 45 degrees without going freehand so I've never thought about it in jungle physics terms. But speaking of jungle physics, if you can get the ball coming back without hitting anything, that's moar speeyunn period; cueball vector vs rotation ratios withstanding.
  
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02-15-2020, 11:32 PM

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Originally Posted by jay helfert View Post
I don't know the physics of it, but in my experience using a narrower tip (say 12mm as opposed to 13mm) allows you to put more extreme english on the cue ball. Maybe it's already been mentioned on here, but I would suggest that by using a narrow tip you can hit lower on the cue ball and draw the ball farther. I speak not from any other base of knowledge but experience. Please correct me if I'm wrong about this.
hi jay
I've also tested this a little bit
I'm not sure how much the physics of a smaller tip/cue matter
but one advantage I notice is being able to aim the smaller tip better on the cb
makes it easier to see what you're doing, be more precise
would be curious to know what other folks think about it


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Bob Jewett
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02-16-2020, 12:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by straightline View Post
I have small hands. I can't get enough wind up at 45 degrees without going freehand so I've never thought about it in jungle physics terms. But speaking of jungle physics, if you can get the ball coming back without hitting anything, that's moar speeyunn period; cueball vector vs rotation ratios withstanding.
The difference between absolute rotation rate and rotation relative to translation is important. I think it is an error to dismiss it.


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Patrick Johnson
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02-16-2020, 12:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jay helfert View Post
I don't know the physics of it, but in my experience using a narrower tip (say 12mm as opposed to 13mm) allows you to put more extreme english on the cue ball. Maybe it's already been mentioned on here, but I would suggest that by using a narrow tip you can hit lower on the cue ball and draw the ball farther. I speak not from any other base of knowledge but experience. Please correct me if I'm wrong about this.
Sorry, Jay, but you’re wrong about that. A narrow tip is just a wider tip with a small outer layer removed. That only means it will be hitting on it’s edge sooner.

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straightline
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02-16-2020, 01:11 AM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
The difference between absolute rotation rate and rotation relative to translation is important. I think it is an error to dismiss it.
Scientifically/mathematically you are absolutely correct although I'd have a hard time proving even that. For pool, I go by what I need the ball to do and what I can do about it. At my level, concerns are that object ball accuracy is forgone and cue ball control is good enough to be good enough. Good patterns and sensible pace are well enough to carry the show.
  
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Patrick Johnson
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02-16-2020, 05:36 AM

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Originally Posted by straightline View Post
I go by what I need the ball to do and what I can do about it.
Knowing what’s physically possible or not should help with that, if you let it.

pj
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Patrick Johnson
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02-16-2020, 07:21 PM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
The Coriolis method of aiming massé quickly tells you that the elevation must be about 60 degrees before the cue ball can even go out and stop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I.e., aiming with maximum draw at the CB's base (where it touches the table).

And the amount of speed = the distance it goes before stopping?

Fascinating stuff.
I tried this on the VP4 simulator - it worked exactly as described: maximum draw at 60° made the CB scoot forward (an amount determined by force) and stop dead with no follow or draw.

I'm always impressed with the accuracy and realism of VP4's physics and graphics.

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Bob Jewett
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02-16-2020, 07:34 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I tried this on the VP4 simulator - it worked exactly as described: maximum draw at 60° made the CB scoot forward (an amount determined by force) and stop dead with no follow or draw.

I'm always impressed with the accuracy and realism of VP4's physics and graphics....
There are a few things VP doesn't get quite right mostly because they are very expensive to calculate. One of them is the ball sinking into the cushion.


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02-17-2020, 05:28 AM

I recall double kiss banks were nonsense. Also with a slight incline you could smack a center ball/ draw shot and get a zillion rails the long way. The one thing that never got corrected is center ball is always where you'd apply left eng.

I think I have 4 somewhere. I should install it.
  
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02-17-2020, 06:21 AM

on each shot go lower until you miscue-The shot right before the miscue is how low you can go.
  
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02-17-2020, 10:23 AM

Here's a related question: Why can some players get consistently more draw than others?

It's all about stroke accuracy. None of us hit the exact CB spot we're trying to hit 100% of the time. But better players with more consistent strokes hit closer to it - they have a "tighter shot grouping". That means they can aim closer to maximum draw because they're less likely to stray outside the limit.

Here's a diagram that illustrates what I'm saying. The large black circles are the miscue limits - the ball on the left shows the looser "shot grouping" (blue dots) of a lower-skilled player and the ball on the right shows the tighter "shot grouping" of a higher skilled player.

Both players have learned subconsciously how low they can aim without miscuing too often: at the red dots on their respective CBs - that's where they've learned is "maximum draw" for them, and that's the amount of average draw they each get.

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