body position when lining up the shot ...square vs angled

bbb

AzB Gold Member
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when you are behind the shot line before you step in
commonly i have read be square or perpendicular to the shot line
the move your right foot onto the shot line (for righties) and step into the shot with your left foot into your stance
snooker players hips are are square to the table so for them
this approach of starting square and staying square makes sense
pool players typically have their hips more angled to the shot line in their stance
so is it wrong to stand behind the shot more in the way you are when in your stance
ie shoulder and hips more angled than square??
your thoughts appreciated
thanks in advance
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
Gold Member
Silver Member
when you are behind the shot line before you step in
commonly i have read be square or perpendicular to the shot line
the move your right foot onto the shot line (for righties) and step into the shot with your left foot into your stance
snooker players hips are are square to the table so for them
this approach of starting square and staying square makes sense
pool players typically have their hips more angled to the shot line in their stance
so is it wrong to stand behind the shot more in the way you are when in your stance
ie shoulder and hips more angled than square??
your thoughts appreciated
thanks in advance

Watch your Digicue Blue. Standing with your hips square is for snooker and zero power as they need. If your tip steer reading is constantly on the "left" or "right", move your feet more open (or closed) to get a better reading. I had to go to 45 degrees with my feet to get my stroke correct. That little tool is an amazing device for correction. Of course, Robin pegs everything all the way green even when he's cold. He has an amazing stroke.
 

One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
when you are behind the shot line before you step in
commonly i have read be square or perpendicular to the shot line
the move your right foot onto the shot line (for righties) and step into the shot with your left foot into your stance
snooker players hips are are square to the table so for them
this approach of starting square and staying square makes sense
pool players typically have their hips more angled to the shot line in their stance
so is it wrong to stand behind the shot more in the way you are when in your stance
ie shoulder and hips more angled than square??
your thoughts appreciated
thanks in advance

Larry, I think you have seen these before. This method is simply logical.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPn3Wzp4NT8&t=9s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGBFRln32uo&t=2s

The body needs to align with the shot line as naturally as possible with no tension....relaxed.

John :)
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
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thanks for the replies guys
i appreciate it..:smile:
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
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Larry, I think you have seen these before. This method is simply logical.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPn3Wzp4NT8&t=9s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGBFRln32uo&t=2s

The body needs to align with the shot line as naturally as possible with no tension....relaxed.

John :)
I've always believed in what's in those two videos. One question: why do so many top snooker players start from such a square-on position before dropping into the shot? I've tried it and that body position along with the tension involved is just not doable for me. Bert's method, for me anyway, is so much more effective.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've always believed in what's in those two videos. One question: why do so many top snooker players start from such a square-on position before dropping into the shot? I've tried it and that body position along with the tension involved is just not doable for me. Bert's method, for me anyway, is so much more effective.

Because some players prefer to step into their stance and other players prefer to drop into their stance. I like to view the shot from farther back from the table, so I look at the shot as I would look at anything --- facing it head-on. Then I begin a two step approach into my stance with my eyes on the line of the shot at all times. My first step is forward, approximately between my eyes --- I can feel it without looking down --- on an extension of the line of the shot. Then I place my second foot, again by feel, (but I know exactly where it is) without looking down. I don't like to look away from the line once I've locked into it. It's like any approach --- it takes time to learn how to coordinate it with the distance you need to stand from the shot to initially view it properly before you get down into your stance.

I think that starting out too close to the table without stepping back to take a look can give you a distorted view of the line of the shot.
 
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bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Because some players prefer to step into their stance and other players prefer to drop into their stance. I like to view the shot from farther back from the table, so I look at the shot as I would look at anything --- facing it head-on. Then I begin a two step approach into my stance with my eyes on the line of the shot at all times. My first step is forward, approximately between my eyes --- I can feel it without looking down --- on an extension of the line of the shot. Then I place my second foot, again by feel, (but I know exactly where it is) without looking down. I don't like to look away from the line once I've locked into it. It's like any approach --- it takes time to learn how to coordinate it with the distance you need to stand from the shot to initially view it properly before you get down into your stance.

I think that starting out too close to the table without stepping back to take a look can give you a distorted view of the line of the shot.

fran when you take your second step are hips square or angled to the shot line?
 

One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Because some players prefer to step into their stance and other players prefer to drop into their stance. I like to view the shot from farther back from the table, so I look at the shot as I would look at anything --- facing it head-on. Then I begin a two step approach into my stance with my eyes on the line of the shot at all times. My first step is forward, approximately between my eyes --- I can feel it without looking down --- on an extension of the line of the shot. Then I place my second foot, again by feel, (but I know exactly where it is) without looking down. I don't like to look away from the line once I've locked into it. It's like any approach --- it takes time to learn how to coordinate it with the distance you need to stand from the shot to initially view it properly before you get down into your stance.

I think that starting out too close to the table without stepping back to take a look can give you a distorted view of the line of the shot.

Once again, words of wisdom. :)

Corey Deuel is a good example of what Bert teaches. He walks around the table at a distance holding his cue at his side, once the shot line is established his stick leads him into a body alignment with the shot line. He steps forward with his right foot on the shot line and his left foot comfortably placed parallel with the shot line.
Lee Brett talks about keeping a distance away from the table so that you can get a better picture of the table and then move in.

How do I transfer VCash to your account Fran. :) :)

Thanks

John
 
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FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
fran when you take your second step are hips square or angled to the shot line?

Still square until I put my front foot down. My turn in is pretty much simultaneous with the placement of my front foot.
 
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Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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Still square until I put my front foot down. My turn in is pretty much simultaneous with the placement of my front foot.

How much is your weight on the bridge in a perfect stance shot? I've noticed if I open my feet to 45 degrees or so to the shot line, more weight goes to my bridge hand. Would a teacher say "no weight on the bridge hand"? In other words.... "keep all of your weight on your feet" (in a perfect stance shot).
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Once again, words of wisdom. :)

Corey Deuel is a good example of what Bert teaches. He walks around the table at a distance holding his cue at his side, once the shot line is established his stick leads him into a body alignment with the shot line. He steps forward with his right foot on the shot line and his left foot comfortably placed parallel with the shot line.
Lee Brett talks about keeping a distance away from the table so that you can get a better picture of the table and then move in.

How do I transfer VCash to your account Fran. :) :)

Thanks

John

Ha! Too funny.

That's always been one of my pet peeves --- not leaving enough room around a table to allow the player to step back and get a good look at the shot.
 

Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Horizon thinking

Every answer here is a good one coming from personal perspectives and attempts to respond to the poster question directly. Sometimes though those are the things keeping us from getting better. Our perspectives can be what limit us. They get us asking questions that even with the answers won’t get us where we need to go in order to get the outcomes we want. This may be one of those moments.

When you learn to drive a car there is a lot competing for your attention. Physical controls such as pedals, shifters, levers, and a steering wheel, need our focus while gauges can answer information questions. Once moving though our attention moves outwards to the direction of movement and the road. We get looking over the hood at the immediate road and keeping the vehicle moving within the driving lane. As we gain experience we learn "horizon driving", our focus moves outwards to a long view allowing us to steer to a far target.

In pool the "over the hood" short sighted focus is called "ball bound." Lee Brett in The Art Of Pool, has a 5 part PSR. His first step he labels as "outside the box". That first step, Sighting/ Aiming, occurs outside the box. He defines the box as a three foot box extending around the table perimeter. Within the perspective of "ball bound", by moving the player away from the ball, means perspective can return to the line to the impact position, "horizon thinking."

So much emphasis, in modern coaching has been on accurate striking and center ball that the idea of lines has been lost. The local billiard academy founder has been trying out a new way of finding his aim line. It involves a pivot at one point. The pivot needs to be an air move, executed while standing up. Recently he was telling me that cuts to the left were working well but he was having an issue sometimes with right cuts. He is left handed. An immediate diagnosis was one of two possible. He was pivoting after getting down, not while up. The pivot on left cuts compared to a pre-pivot line moved the cue away from his body. Conversely the right cut pivots the butt towards the shooters body. The second possibility is lining up at a distance, cue ball to object ball, rather than the desired impact location. In essence the problem is the same, getting down on the wrong line.

Pool is a game of lines. When we get fixated on a ball or balls it has the potential to mess up shots. It also can lead to losing the line. So what should we do as players to get it right.

Take a page from Lee Brett’s book. Get back from the table when sighting and aiming. Find the final aim line pointing to impact position. Step on that line. Air aim with the cue while standing. Take your stance on the target line. Align the cueing arm and cue in a single piece running through the cue ball to impact. Lower the bridge and cue by going over into the shot led by the visual perspective of going straight forward and down the target line. In the process the left foot advances forward to shift the right hip out of the way of the vertical cueing plane moving itself into address position.

It’s easy for the stance to be a distraction. Focus needs to be on the line and delivering a straight cue. Stepping on the line is just a good place to start.
 
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FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How much is your weight on the bridge in a perfect stance shot? I've noticed if I open my feet to 45 degrees or so to the shot line, more weight goes to my bridge hand. Would a teacher say "no weight on the bridge hand"? In other words.... "keep all of your weight on your feet" (in a perfect stance shot).

I couldn't give you a percentage but I would have to say the majority of weight for me is back and right. (I'm right handed) on the bottom half of my body. There has to be some weight on the bridge hand to keep it steady, but not a leaning type of weight. Leaning on your bridge arm can cause physical injury to your shoulder joints --- and that really hurts.

But my angle to the cue stick is more than 45 degrees --- probably more like 65 degrees, or maybe even 70. I don't think you can comfortably have the weight distribution I'm referring to with a 45 degree angle.
 
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bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Every answer here is a good one coming from personal perspectives and attempts to respond to the poster question directly. Sometimes though those are the things keeping us from getting better. Our perspectives can be what limit us. They get us asking questions that even with the answers won’t get us where we need to go in order to get the outcomes we want. This may be one of those moments.

When you learn to drive a car there is a lot competing for your attention. Physical controls such as pedals, shifters, levers, and a steering wheel, need our focus while gauges can answer information questions. Once moving though our attention moves outwards to the direction of movement and the road. We get looking over the hood at the immediate road and keeping the vehicle moving within the driving lane. As we gain experience we learn "horizon driving", our focus moves outwards to a long view allowing us to steer to a far target.

In pool the "over the hood" short sighted focus is called "ball bound." Lee Brett in The Art Of Pool, has a 5 part PSR. His first step he labels as "outside the box". That first step, Sighting/ Aiming, occurs outside the box. He defines the box as a three foot box extending around the table perimeter. Within the perspective of "ball bound", by moving the player away from the ball, means perspective can return to the line to the impact position, "horizon thinking."

So much emphasis, in modern coaching has been on accurate striking and center ball that the idea of lines has been lost. The local billiard academy founder has been trying out a new way of finding his aim line. It involves a pivot at one point. The pivot needs to be an air move, executed while standing up. Recently he was telling me that cuts to the left were working well but he was having an issue sometimes with right cuts. He is left handed. An immediate diagnosis was one of two possible. He was pivoting after getting down, not while up. The pivot on left cuts compared to a pre-pivot line moved the cue away from his body. Conversely the right cut pivots the butt towards the shooters body. The second possibility is lining up at a distance, cue ball to object ball, rather than the desired impact location. In essence the problem is the same, getting down on the wrong line.

Pool is a game of lines. When we get fixated on a ball or balls it has the potential to mess up shots. It also can lead to losing the line. So what should we do as players to get it right.

Take a page from Lee Brett’s book. Get back from the table when sighting and aiming. Find the final aim line pointing to impact position. Step on that line. Air aim with the cue while standing. Take your stance on the target line. Align the cueing arm and cue in a single piece running through the cue ball to impact. Lower the bridge and cue by going over into the shot led by the visual perspective of going straight forward and down the target line. In the process the left foot advances forward to shift the right hip out of the way of the vertical cueing plane moving itself into address position.

It’s easy for the stance to be a distraction. Focus needs to be on the line and delivering a straight cue. Stepping on the line is just a good place to start.
Imac007 thanks for the reply
the question is when your foot is on the line
you can be facing square like a snooker player or angled like a pool players stance
and still have your foot on the line and your head in the proper position
if you look at the links in this post
https://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=6321264&postcount=4
the stance advocated is definitely angled and not square
if your stance down on the shot is not square
why would you align square?
isnt it better to see the shot from the body/head angle you are going to shoot it?
for snooker style players the question is moot since they align square and stand square
 

Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Every context has its own answer.

Imac007 thanks for the reply
the question is when your foot is on the line
you can be facing square like a snooker player or angled like a pool players stance
and still have your foot on the line and your head in the proper position
if you look at the links in this post
https://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=6321264&postcount=4
the stance advocated is definitely angled and not square
if your stance down on the shot is not square
why would you align square?
isnt it better to see the shot from the body/head angle you are going to shoot it?
for snooker style players the question is moot since they align square and stand square

My evaluation criteria determine my stance in each situation. That criteria, distance aiming, approach on cueing line, and delivery of cue down the line are the principles no matter the situation. Often the table dictates the stance. A shot requiring some reach can force the hips square to the rail. Having to adjust to avoid touching balls causes us to morph our bodies to align. Flexibility and adaptability are the keys. You need to decide what things are most important on a case by case basis.

I’m left eye dominant. Joe Davis was too. He looked at the line from the bridge hand, through the head and upper right arm and decided that worked. He had to bend over to lay them in a straight line running under his body. That has a natural alignment ring to it too. But most of us can’t lay out a fully extended bridge arm. A square stance to me would seem counter intuitive since the right eye more naturally positions over my right cueing arm line, not the left. However, my desire to cue beside my body, making it possible to straight cue using my upper chest as a guide was more important to me. That said getting my vision on line and keeping it there is primary.

There is an adage that people decide based on emotion and justify with logic. Could we be looking at and hearing justifications players tell themselves for what they do? Pick what you think is most important and in what order. Make a decision and stick to your choice, unless something comes along forcing you to change your priorities.
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
My evaluation criteria determine my stance in each situation. That criteria, distance aiming, approach on cueing line, and delivery of cue down the line are the principles no matter the situation. Often the table dictates the stance. A shot requiring some reach can force the hips square to the rail. Having to adjust to avoid touching balls causes us to morph our bodies to align. Flexibility and adaptability are the keys. You need to decide what things are most important on a case by case basis.

I’m left eye dominant. Joe Davis was too. He looked at the line from the bridge hand, through the head and upper right arm and decided that worked. He had to bend over to lay them in a straight line running under his body. That has a natural alignment ring to it too. But most of us can’t lay out a fully extended bridge arm. A square stance to me would seem counter intuitive since the right eye more naturally positions over my right cueing arm line, not the left. However, my desire to cue beside my body, making it possible to straight cue using my upper chest as a guide was more important to me. That said getting my vision on line and keeping it there is primary.

There is an adage that people decide based on emotion and justify with logic. Could we be looking at and hearing justifications players tell themselves for what they do? Pick what you think is most important and in what order. Make a decision and stick to your choice, unless something comes along forcing you to change your priorities.
thanks again for your response.
 

greyghost

Coast to Coast
Silver Member
Ha! Too funny.



That's always been one of my pet peeves --- not leaving enough room around a table to allow the player to step back and get a good look at the shot.



I’ll put my ass on the other table and lean back lean back and do the rock away.

Back in the day I had a high dollar shot and a table in my buttcrack and I just turned around grabbed the dam thing and picked it up moved it over a few feet then nailed the shot, put the table back and stuck my hand out then the dude quit on me . Said I was too strong....I laughed and said common man it’s not a lifting contest bro! Lol


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
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i had a discussion with pw98 regarding sightright
and there advocacy of starting square to the shot
and i mentioned that i put my head/vision center on the shotline but stand angled
when i am behind the shot lining up before stepping in
for the stepping in is easier starting angled than starting square for me
it was in another thread that was not devoted to sightright
so when i sent him a pm to discuss it he asked i put my pm public so he could answer publicly so others can benefit from his answer
since this old thread was/is related to that issue
i am putting my pm here so pw98 can answer
so here is my pm to pw98
..........................
i am happy it has helped you.
i think you need to give credit which you do that other peices in the jigsaw puzzle were already in place for this piece to fit well
the premise of sight right (i will call it SR for short from now on)
is the old teaching of put your foot on the shot line caused your head to be off the shot line so you were seeing "across " the shot line.
SR wants your vision center to be on the shot line from the standing position
i have proved i can have my head on the shot line in line with my vision center even tho my shoulders are not perpendicular to the shot line.
i can pretty much maintain that head position as i come STRAIGHT DOWN along the line
i only need to step forward with my left foot
there is minimal zigzagging of my head in relation to the vision center aim line as i had when trying to bring my right foot to the shot line and then move my left foot when i started out square.......ie the shot line near my belly button .........so right leg would be right of the shot line
i did get some usefull feed back regarding my alignment with SR
so i wouldnt say it was a complete waste of money
i was very disappointed that there customer service after purchase was so poor
 
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