secret to long table bank shots

judochoke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
is it getting to know the sweet spot on the short rail to bank the ball from one corner pocket to the opposite corner pocket on long banks? or is using the diamonds on the short rail the way to bank the ball?

am I only using the 2-3-4 diamonds, and the their prospective halfs also? ( 1.5-2.5-3.5-
4.5)

or is it knowing where the sweet spot is on the short rail?

I can make some shots once in a few balls using the diamond system, but have no consistency at all.

thanks for any info. judo
 

judochoke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
chalky stick
 

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Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
is it getting to know the sweet spot on the short rail to bank the ball from one corner pocket to the opposite corner pocket on long banks? or is using the diamonds on the short rail the way to bank the ball?

am I only using the 2-3-4 diamonds, and the their prospective halfs also? ( 1.5-2.5-3.5-
4.5)

or is it knowing where the sweet spot is on the short rail?

I can make some shots once in a few balls using the diamond system, but have no consistency at all.

thanks for any info. judo

There is no sweet spot and you have to divide the diamonds much finer than halves to have any hope if you are going to use them. If you don't already know how to set up a mirror target, learn about that and practice with it.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
There is no sweet spot and you have to divide the diamonds much finer than halves to have any hope if you are going to use them. If you don't already know how to set up a mirror target, learn about that and practice with it.
Half diamond increments can be useful as guidelines. Visualize half diamond-to-whole diamond guidelines (black lines below) and practice visualizing the actual bank/kick paths on or between them.

pj
chgo
 

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bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
15/30/45 right /left sweep cte pro one don't listen to PJ

that was clearly (to me ) an unprovoked attack on pj....:mad::mad:
this is NOT THE AIMING FORUM
stick to the thread
i reported your post to mr wilson and gave you a red
 
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croscoe

Retired
Silver Member
Halfing , mirror , diamond even the 15,30,45 are all going to be hit or miss without taking into consideration the effect speed and spin of the cueBALL (corrected) can have on the object ball.
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Halfing , mirror , diamond even the 15,30,45 are all going to be hit or miss without taking into consideration the effect speed and spin of the cue can have on the object ball.
Those effects are less of an issue with steeper banks like the long way ones, but still worth keeping in mind. One technique for adjusting for CB rolling spin (which widens kick/bank angles, especially for angles that aren’t as steep), is to aim at the diamond on the rail behind the “geometrically correct” equal-angle spot at the gutter. The on-the-rail aim point is self-adjusting - less difference for steeper angles, more difference for wider ones.

pj
chgo
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
that was clearly (to me ) an unprovoked attack on pj....:mad::mad:
this is NOT THE AIMING FORUM
stick to the thread
i reported your post to mr wilson and gave you a red
Thanks, Larry. I’m pretty sure most just ignore these “chip on the shoulder” posters (I do) - they think they’re posting “zingers”, but they’re probably just kids being kids, showing their own immaturity. They’ll grow up eventually (theoretically).

pj
chgo
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Half diamond increments can be useful as guidelines. Visualize half diamond-to-whole diamond guidelines (black lines below) and practice visualizing the actual bank/kick paths on or between them.

pj
chgo

I'm not an expert long rail banker but I'm a little confused as to how your suggestion can help. Imagining those bank lines and then visualizing a parallel line is one thing, but that's not the case as you can see in your diagrams. All is seems to do is give you a fairly wide area on the rail that you can use to choose from.

Am I missing something here?
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I'm not an expert long rail banker but I'm a little confused as to how your suggestion can help. Imagining those bank lines and then visualizing a parallel line is one thing, but that's not the case as you can see in your diagrams. All is seems to do is give you a fairly wide area on the rail that you can use to choose from.

Am I missing something here?
The fact that you have to visualize actual bank paths that aren’t quite parallel with the reference lines...? If you visualize the reference lines on either side of the object ball it helps.

Not for everybody, I guess...

pj
chgo
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I'm not an expert long rail banker but I'm a little confused as to how your suggestion can help. Imagining those bank lines and then visualizing a parallel line is one thing, but that's not the case as you can see in your diagrams. All is seems to do is give you a fairly wide area on the rail that you can use to choose from.

Am I missing something here?
There is not really a wide area. You are supposed to notice the two "simple" paths that surround the object ball, notice how much closer to one of them the object ball is -- maybe half as far from one -- and then shoot the object ball to the corresponding place on the far rail, aiming to a spot between the two reference diamonds (or half-diamonds) and closer to one of them in the same proportion as found before, such as twice as close to one of the two reference diamonds.

Other examples: if the OB is quite close to one of the reference lines being used, it should be shot quite close (but not directly to) the far end of the reference line at the diamonds. If the OB is exactly half way between two reference lines, it should be shot half way between the corresponding diamond locations on the far rail.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Another point for the OP to consider is that if you get spin on the object ball, it will change the bank angle and can be more than enough to miss (or make) the shot. Here is a demo of this idea. The eight ball is on the spot. The nine ball is exactly in the middle of the normal bank path. By using left or right side spin on the cue ball you can get right or left side spin on the object ball and then bank the eight ball on either side of the nine ball and still come back to the pocket.

Sometimes you get side spin on an object ball just by it being a cut shot. In the diagram, you put side spin on the cue ball to transfer some to the OB.

CropperCapture[288].png
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There is not really a wide area. You are supposed to notice the two "simple" paths that surround the object ball, notice how much closer to one of them the object ball is -- maybe half as far from one -- and then shoot the object ball to the corresponding place on the far rail, aiming to a spot between the two reference diamonds (or half-diamonds) and closer to one of them in the same proportion as found before, such as twice as close to one of the two reference diamonds.

Other examples: if the OB is quite close to one of the reference lines being used, it should be shot quite close (but not directly to) the far end of the reference line at the diamonds. If the OB is exactly half way between two reference lines, it should be shot half way between the corresponding diamond locations on the far rail.

I guess... but I think that for me, there's still a little too much guesswork going on. What I do is draw an imaginary line from the ob to the bank rail. Then I find the midpoint on the rail to that pocket. Then I adjust incrementally (based on earlier testing of the rails) based on how close to bank rail the ob is.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
There is not really a wide area. You are supposed to notice the two "simple" paths that surround the object ball, notice how much closer to one of them the object ball is -- maybe half as far from one -- and then shoot the object ball to the corresponding place on the far rail, aiming to a spot between the two reference diamonds (or half-diamonds) and closer to one of them in the same proportion as found before, such as twice as close to one of the two reference diamonds.

Other examples: if the OB is quite close to one of the reference lines being used, it should be shot quite close (but not directly to) the far end of the reference line at the diamonds. If the OB is exactly half way between two reference lines, it should be shot half way between the corresponding diamond locations on the far rail.
Yes, I do it both those ways.

Another way is to pivot your stick over the OB until the distance from the nearest guideline on the far rail is half the distance from the same guideline on the near rail.

Like any other method, after awhile you get pretty good at just "seeing" the OB path/guideline relationship.

Works well for kicks too.

pj
chgo
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... What I do is draw an imaginary line from the ob to the bank rail. Then I find the midpoint on the rail to that pocket. Then I adjust incrementally (based on earlier testing of the rails) based on how close to bank rail the ob is.
I don't understand this. Here is what your description means to me up to the point of adjustment. Is this correct? X marks the midpoint.

CropperCapture[289].png
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
What I do is draw an imaginary line from the ob to the bank rail. Then I find the midpoint on the rail to that pocket. Then I adjust incrementally (based on earlier testing of the rails) based on how close to bank rail the ob is.
Here's a way to figure the "equal angle" bank rail contact point with the ball and the target different distances from the bank rail.

The fraction of the "sideways" distance the ball travels to the bank rail is equal to the fraction of the total "vertical" distance it travels to get there.

pj
chgo

These are kicks, but the same principle works for banks.

Proportional Kicks.jpg
 

croscoe

Retired
Silver Member
Another point for the OP to consider is that if you get spin on the object ball, it will change the bank angle and can be more than enough to miss (or make) the shot. Here is a demo of this idea. The eight ball is on the spot. The nine ball is exactly in the middle of the normal bank path. By using left or right side spin on the cue ball you can get right or left side spin on the object ball and then bank the eight ball on either side of the nine ball and still come back to the pocket.

Sometimes you get side spin on an object ball just by it being a cut shot. In the diagram, you put side spin on the cue ball to transfer some to the OB.

View attachment 517791


This is the point I was making. Left English on the cue ball as it arrives at OB can impart counterclockwise on object ball allowing you the short angle the shot. OB having spin goes wide if shot with light medium to slower speed. ( no flames we all judge speed slightly different I understand)
 
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FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't understand this. Here is what your description means to me up to the point of adjustment. Is this correct? X marks the midpoint.

View attachment 517804

Right. The midpoint represents a perfect bank if the ob were on the bottom rail and there was no cb. So then I adjust my aim point to the left of the midpoint incrementally, based on how many diamonds up from the bottom rail the ob actually is. Sometimes the adjustment is 1 inch per diamond -- sometimes less, sometimes more, depending on how that rail is banking --- which I've determined before play starts.
 
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FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here's a way to figure the "equal angle" bank rail contact point with the ball and the target different distances from the bank rail.

The fraction of the "sideways" distance the ball travels to the bank rail is equal to the fraction of the total "vertical" distance it travels to get there.

pj
chgo

These are kicks, but the same principle works for banks.

View attachment 517805

That's very helpful. Thanks.
 
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