Micro adjustments down on the shot

deraltefritz

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hi guys,

I've spend the last few years working mostly on my fundamentals on my home table, as kids, work & other hobbies prevent me from finding the time to compete at the moment.

I'm quite satisfied with the basic stuff (feet, shoulder, elbow, grip, bridge, etc.) and am confident that I move the cue in a straight line for the majority of shots. I visualize the line of the shot, walk into it, get down. Very repetitive.


But there's one thing that I cannot get right:

It's the (ultra) precise alignment of the stick relative to the line of the shot. Assume for simplicity that I intend to shoot a stop shot (no side spin) on a perfectly straight-in shot. The moment I'm down, and only when I pay particular intention to it, I realize that the tip may be a quarter of a millimeter left or right of center ball (no preference to either side noticeable). Similarly, the cue is often angled ever so slightly from the perfect line, sometimes to the left, sometimes to the right. I don't know if it's my bridge hand or my grip hand, or both, that cause this small misalignment.

I stress that these errors are really tiny and require special attention from my side to even notice them, and for the majority of shots that come up in a race against the ghost or when working on drills, they do not cause me to miss the pot or screw up position. But it bothers me especially on straight in shots when the cueball spins for a short while instead of stoppping dead, and becomes an issue on delicate longer shots (spin induced throw, swerve).

I've practiced to stand up, re-adjust my aim, and get down again. That isn't leading to me landing in line perfectly. If I get up & down four or five times, eventually I might land very very close to perfect. But it seems more random than anything else, and not very practical.

What does help are micro adjustments. When the tip is a tiny bit left of center (or in general where I intended it to be), I simply move my bridge hand thumb every so slightly to the right to compensate. When I notice the stick is slightly angled, I move bridge thumb and grip hand together until the cue is (what I perceive to be) perfectly on line.

If I do these tiny adjustments when down on the shot, I can get the perfect stop shot much more reliably, and in general feel much more confident in the outcome of the shot ahead.

But it does increase my average shot time noticeably, and in general I feel it goes against my natural rhythm.

So what are your opinions on this matter? In textbooks you always read "do your aiming while standing" or similar, and in some I've read statements such as "only very small adjustments are valid when down on the shot". Does what I describe as very small adjustments? Do you do do micro adjustments when down on the shot? Should I do them only on the rare shots that require the extra bit of precision?

Looking forward to your responses,
Fritz
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... So what are your opinions on this matter? In textbooks you always read "do your aiming while standing" or similar, and in some I've read statements such as "only very small adjustments are valid when down on the shot". Does what I describe as very small adjustments? Do you do do micro adjustments when down on the shot? Should I do them only on the rare shots that require the extra bit of precision?

Looking forward to your responses,
Fritz
I find it impossible to consistently place my bridge hand within a fraction of a millimeter of the right place as I drop into position. I frequently make small adjustments when down on the shot.

I don't know if anyone can actually avoid those small adjustments on a shot as hard as a spot shot. It would be interesting to accurately record someone who seems to never adjust or who thinks they never adjust. You would have to be able to record the position of the bridge and back hand down to less than a millimeter.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I find it impossible to consistently place my bridge hand within a fraction of a millimeter of the right place as I drop into position. I frequently make small adjustments when down on the shot.

I don't know if anyone can actually avoid those small adjustments on a shot as hard as a spot shot. It would be interesting to accurately record someone who seems to never adjust or who thinks they never adjust. You would have to be able to record the position of the bridge and back hand down to less than a millimeter.
Totally agree. "Most" of your aiming is done standing but you'll always have some slight/micro adjustments after dropping down. No way to drop down perfectly all the time.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Do you do do micro adjustments when down on the shot? Should I do them only on the rare shots that require the extra bit of precision?
I think all shots require the "extra" precision, and "finalizing" your aim after getting down on the shot is inevitable and advisable. Those who claim they don't do it probably just aren't watching closely enough to know they're doing it (or they're not being as precise as they should).

pj <- does it
chgo
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well, to the op: If you really feel you want that kind of precision, then I recommend that you buy a snooker cue and use that. There is a trade-off, however, which is that because you're playing with pool balls, you will flatten the tip very easily and it will probably even pop off a few times. You may have some trouble mustering up power, but you may find the precision you are looking for.

How do I know this? My friend, Gene Nagy, a top level player in his era, tried the same thing for the same reasons as you, and those were his results. He stayed with it for awhile, but he eventually switched back.

Spinning in place really isn't that much of a big deal --- as long as the object ball goes into the pocket --- you're good to go.
 

M.G.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I fail so see the mentioning of the good old Snooker technique, which will exactly prevent these little being-of-the-line-things.

- Chin rests on cue, with contact throughout the whole stroke
- Cue rests against body / right side of rib cage probably

The take CB and practise shots hitting a diamond opposite of spot, where the CB shall come back straight an touch your tip again.
Until you have been fully aligned.

Done!
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Well, to the op: If you really feel you want that kind of precision, then I recommend that you buy a snooker cue and use that. There is a trade-off, however, which is that because you're playing with pool balls, you will flatten the tip very easily and it will probably even pop off a few times. You may have some trouble mustering up power, but you may find the precision you are looking for.

How do I know this? My friend, Gene Nagy, a top level player in his era, tried the same thing for the same reasons as you, and those were his results. He stayed with it for awhile, but he eventually switched back.

Spinning in place really isn't that much of a big deal --- as long as the object ball goes into the pocket --- you're good to go.
I've used a snooker-size tip to play pool for more than 15 years, and I agree it promotes precision (easier to see exactly where the tip hits the CB). It's also lower squirt, if that matters to you. Maybe I'm lucky, but I've never had any of the problems Nagy did.

pj
chgo
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've used a snooker-size tip to play pool for more than 15 years, and I agree it promotes precision (easier to see exactly where the tip hits the CB). It's also lower squirt, if that matters to you. Maybe I'm lucky, but I've never had any of the problems Nagy did.

pj
chgo

He even converted the ferrule to brass which helped in keeping the tip from popping off as much, but it still popped off a little too frequently for his liking. He did use the cue to shoot power shots when they came up in a game. You wrote that you use a snooker-size tip. Did you use a snooker cue? If not, how did you do it? That had to be a really sharp taper, but that would mean more squirt and not less.
 
Last edited:

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I fail so see the mentioning of the good old Snooker technique, which will exactly prevent these little being-of-the-line-things.

- Chin rests on cue, with contact throughout the whole stroke
- Cue rests against body / right side of rib cage probably

The take CB and practise shots hitting a diamond opposite of spot, where the CB shall come back straight an touch your tip again.
Until you have been fully aligned.

Done!
Do you believe that top snooker players actually place their bridge hands within half a millimeter of the correct location as they come down to shooting position? That is the accuracy that's required for something like the pink off its spot when shooting from the D. I think it would be very interesting to actually measure how accurate they are on the initial drop-to-shooting-position and if they adjust some side-to-side via bridge movements while down on the shot.

I have seen a lot of pool players who adjust their bridge positions during the final stroke -- while the cue is moving.
 
Last edited:

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
You wrote that you use a snooker-size tip. Did you use a snooker cue? If not, how did you do it? That had to be a really sharp taper, but that would mean more squirt and not less.
I had shafts made with hollow 10mm tip, 3/8" ferrule and conical taper tip to joint. With the conical taper the hit is very stiff, and yet (because of the small hollow tip) the cue has the lowest squirt of any I've seen (~20" pivot length).

This is consistent with what scientists say about squirt - that it's mostly affected by "end mass", very little by stiffness.

pj
chgo
 

deraltefritz

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thank you all for the feedback.

@Bob Jewett & @Patrick Johnson
Thank you for your honest answer. I think I will continue the micro adjustments, at least on shots that require the accuracy.
It raises the philosophical question though: when are the adjustments necessary too large to do it down on the shot :p
It would be very interesting to measure these adjustments on professional players, as you suggest Bob. Maybe something like the OB DigiCue attached to the front end. But maybe even attached in the standard way, the internal measurements could give some insights... I think the developer of the device frequents this forum, maybe he can give his opinion...?


@FranCrimi:
I actually play with a Chinese 8-ball cue, which is basically a snooker cue with conical taper, but a more pool ball oriented 11.5 mm tip. Also played with a 9mm snooker cue for a while. The reason is purely because I like the hit this taper produces. Pivot point is around the 12" mark, so very close to my natural bridge length.

I never once felt it added more accuracy though. I can see that the tip position is slightly off from where I intend to aim also with a 13mm house cue.
Tips never came off either, I even use them for breaking. But as it's common to hold the cue oriented the same way on every shot, the tips get deformed non-uniformly (more compressed on top, as draw shots are usually hit harder). But I just play with it like that.

@M.G.
I don't use my chin on the cue on most shots. But I always have contact to my chest. That part makes it basically impossible to steer the tip to the side unintentionally. Without it I could never cue straight.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I had shafts made with hollow 10mm tip, 3/8" ferrule and conical taper tip to joint. With the conical taper the hit is very stiff, and yet (because of the small hollow tip) the cue has the lowest squirt of any I've seen (~20" pivot length).

This is consistent with what scientists say about squirt - that it's mostly affected by "end mass", very little by stiffness.

pj
chgo

Ah... okay. I see you had the shafts specially made. I wonder if that helped keep the tip on the cue as well. I think Gene may have experimented as low as 7mm. But he also did go up to 9 or 10 and the tip still popped off. But it was crazy at 7.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thank you all for the feedback.

@Bob Jewett & @Patrick Johnson
Thank you for your honest answer. I think I will continue the micro adjustments, at least on shots that require the accuracy.
It raises the philosophical question though: when are the adjustments necessary too large to do it down on the shot :p
It would be very interesting to measure these adjustments on professional players, as you suggest Bob. Maybe something like the OB DigiCue attached to the front end. But maybe even attached in the standard way, the internal measurements could give some insights... I think the developer of the device frequents this forum, maybe he can give his opinion...?


@FranCrimi:
I actually play with a Chinese 8-ball cue, which is basically a snooker cue with conical taper, but a more pool ball oriented 11.5 mm tip. Also played with a 9mm snooker cue for a while. The reason is purely because I like the hit this taper produces. Pivot point is around the 12" mark, so very close to my natural bridge length.

I never once felt it added more accuracy though. I can see that the tip position is slightly off from where I intend to aim also with a 13mm house cue.
Tips never came off either, I even use them for breaking. But as it's common to hold the cue oriented the same way on every shot, the tips get deformed non-uniformly (more compressed on top, as draw shots are usually hit harder). But I just play with it like that.

@M.G.
I don't use my chin on the cue on most shots. But I always have contact to my chest. That part makes it basically impossible to steer the tip to the side unintentionally. Without it I could never cue straight.


Then it sounds like you should keep working on your fundamentals and that your issues with accuracy may be either in your alignment or arm swing.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Ah... okay. I see you had the shafts specially made. I wonder if that helped keep the tip on the cue as well. I think Gene may have experimented as low as 7mm. But he also did go up to 9 or 10 and the tip still popped off. But it was crazy at 7.
I install all my own tips, and I find that the most important part is to get the tip and ferrule surfaces perfectly flat (I use flat files on them for that). Only lost one or two over the years when I wasn't careful enough about that (or when I used old glue).

My only fear about tips popping off has been about them being taller than they are wide, at least for the first few months before they get compressed a little (I'm too cheap to cut them down when I install them) - but that doesn't ever seem to happen. Crazy glue is pretty impressive.

pj
chgo
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Hi guys,

I've spend the last few years working mostly on my fundamentals on my home table, as kids, work & other hobbies prevent me from finding the time to compete at the moment.

I'm quite satisfied with the basic stuff (feet, shoulder, elbow, grip, bridge, etc.) and am confident that I move the cue in a straight line for the majority of shots. I visualize the line of the shot, walk into it, get down. Very repetitive.


But there's one thing that I cannot get right:

It's the (ultra) precise alignment of the stick relative to the line of the shot. Assume for simplicity that I intend to shoot a stop shot (no side spin) on a perfectly straight-in shot. The moment I'm down, and only when I pay particular intention to it, I realize that the tip may be a quarter of a millimeter left or right of center ball (no preference to either side noticeable). Similarly, the cue is often angled ever so slightly from the perfect line, sometimes to the left, sometimes to the right. I don't know if it's my bridge hand or my grip hand, or both, that cause this small misalignment.

I stress that these errors are really tiny and require special attention from my side to even notice them, and for the majority of shots that come up in a race against the ghost or when working on drills, they do not cause me to miss the pot or screw up position. But it bothers me especially on straight in shots when the cueball spins for a short while instead of stoppping dead, and becomes an issue on delicate longer shots (spin induced throw, swerve).

I've practiced to stand up, re-adjust my aim, and get down again. That isn't leading to me landing in line perfectly. If I get up & down four or five times, eventually I might land very very close to perfect. But it seems more random than anything else, and not very practical.

What does help are micro adjustments. When the tip is a tiny bit left of center (or in general where I intended it to be), I simply move my bridge hand thumb every so slightly to the right to compensate. When I notice the stick is slightly angled, I move bridge thumb and grip hand together until the cue is (what I perceive to be) perfectly on line.

If I do these tiny adjustments when down on the shot, I can get the perfect stop shot much more reliably, and in general feel much more confident in the outcome of the shot ahead.

But it does increase my average shot time noticeably, and in general I feel it goes against my natural rhythm.

So what are your opinions on this matter? In textbooks you always read "do your aiming while standing" or similar, and in some I've read statements such as "only very small adjustments are valid when down on the shot". Does what I describe as very small adjustments? Do you do do micro adjustments when down on the shot? Should I do them only on the rare shots that require the extra bit of precision?

Looking forward to your responses,
Fritz

Trust in aim is vital. Allow your hand to follow through on your eyed target. If you don't follow what I'm saying, PM me and I'll give you an exercise that will amaze you and demonstrate to you the confidence you'll need to succeed.

It's far more important IMHO that you allow your eye/hand/brain to redirect your aim/stroke line than it is to adjust physically after you're down in the stance. Either you're "close to on or on" in the stance or you get up and re-assume the stance. Pivoting and adjustments should be done with the mind and not with the hands.
 

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How far do you have to "follow through" Matt?

Consistent Personal Eye Patterns are the answer to accurate aiming and delivery!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Trust in aim is vital. Allow your hand to follow through on your eyed target.

It's far more important IMHO that you allow your eye/hand/brain to redirect your aim/stroke line than it is to adjust physically after you're down in the stance. Either you're "close to on or on" in the stance or you get up and re-assume the stance. Pivoting and adjustments should be done with the mind and not with the hands.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
How far do you have to "follow through" Matt?

Consistent Personal Eye Patterns are the answer to accurate aiming and delivery!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

The hand has to go toward where the eyes aim. If the stroke is straight, the cue stick will follow through along that line.

I'm not sure what you mean by "consistent personal eye patterns" but while consistency is key to accurate aiming, delivery has to do with a consistent stroke.
 
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