Using english to much

Brizzle said:

I got the privilege of shooting with a old timmer yesterday that has been shooting for 60 years.
Local bank player like most of the old fellas in my area.
I play him in some 8 ball and 9 ball and bank.

I did get the opportunity to run out on 8 ball couple racks and one 9 ball rack.

After we were done and he was showing us a few trick shots i ask him what he thought about my game and anything i should focus on.
He mentioned that i use english to much. He explained that when i get shape to try to get shape in my patterns for natural angles.
He also said that he uses english but not to extreme. He knew of guy that uses no english at all. I remember 15 years ago another guy telling the only english used was center top, bottom, and center.
Are there players out there that use no english and can run racks or play good enough safetys that they still win majority of there matches?

Thanks

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Funny you say this. A few nights ago Rodney Morris was in my local room. He played in the golf game and then played some 10ball. I watched from table-side for about an hour or so. He uses very little spin most times. He takes what the shot gives and plays the natural angle as well as anyone i've ever watched. Hits a lot of shots with a little bit of follow and just rolls the ball around the table. I know some on here say pros spin it on virtually every shot but i don't believe that. Spin is a super useful tool but its easy to overdo it. Your playing buddy was giving you good info imo.

For 8 ball or 14.1 it's generally easier, in that you can plan your runs. 14.1 still needs spin on the opening break, the break shots etc. but you can usually get by with less than rotation games. But no spin at all? No, that's crazy talk.

You need side to play your best rotation pool. If the rack is wide open, then ok, you can run that without spin, but usually you need spin to maximize your chances of getting good angles. With balls on the rails this is especially true. Sometimes on this forum I think some people don't play the game at all? How can you properly run out in 9 and 10 ball without the standard low outside to middle table and high inside to middle table? It's 10 times harder without these shots. And what do you gain? Maybe a fraction better pocketing in some cases, but usually the low outside helps with that too, so there really is no reason to cut it out. The important part is that these shots take scratches out of the game. Try playing without for a while and see. Going through the middle of the table diagonally simplifies not only getting good angles, but travelling the length of the table without any chance of scratching.

Personally I use high inside to pocket balls and go straight up and down the table as well striking the short rail and traveling towards the middle of the table, straight up and down. The inside in many cases (when it's reverse) slows the cueball down and is more tolerant of slight errors, versus just using degrees of high which is extremely difficult to control by comparison. I couldn't imagine playing pool without using these shots. And then there are banks....Many of those don't even go without side, and at the very least the cueball cannot be properly controlled. Safeties are 100% more difficult, too. Just getting wrong sided on a shot to the side pocket means that you have to go all the way around the table, if you can't use inside, and without outside you have to pound the shot as well...Simple shots that anyone can do, are now stroke and nerve testers that even a players would think twice about. It's silly that this sort of thing comes up every couple of months on the forum, i guess misinformation is all around. Some people like to hold others down, I guess.

Follow, stop, stun shots and center ball are all you need to run a table but using English
helps you navigate so much better when there are trouble clusters or balls touching. But
relying on English too much will definitely betray you & usually happens at the worst times.

Straightpool_99 said:

For 8 ball or 14.1 it's generally easier, in that you can plan your runs. 14.1 still needs spin on the opening break, the break shots etc. but you can usually get by with less than rotation games. But no spin at all? No, that's crazy talk.

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Agreed that you need it in your tool box for full potential.

But you don't need to reach for it anywhere near as often as many B or low A players do.

In their case it is indeed holding them back as they learned how to spin before they learned how to use angles properly and it stunted their growth.

There is an old story about either Caras or Mosconi playing some average gent.
After the game/match the gent ask the pro what he thought of his game:
The pro responds: you use english on every shot.
Gent responds: yes
The pro responds: but you only needed it twice.

Watch any YouTube match with top 20 pros. They use spin on nearly every single shot. Don’t watch their tip, watch the reaction of the CB off the first rail.

i find that minimizing sidespin is a good way to get back in form when you're in a slump. i'm a hopeless case of "using a lot of spin because i can" though

Brizzle said:

I got the privilege of shooting with a old timmer yesterday that has been shooting for 60 years.
Local bank player like most of the old fellas in my area.
I play him in some 8 ball and 9 ball and bank.

I did get the opportunity to run out on 8 ball couple racks and one 9 ball rack.

After we were done and he was showing us a few trick shots i ask him what he thought about my game and anything i should focus on.
He mentioned that i use english to much. He explained that when i get shape to try to get shape in my patterns for natural angles.
He also said that he uses english but not to extreme. He knew of guy that uses no english at all. I remember 15 years ago another guy telling the only english used was center top, bottom, and center.
Are there players out there that use no english and can run racks or play good enough safetys that they still win majority of there matches?

Thanks

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You broke and ran three racks in your session. How many did he break and run? I assume you were asking him because he plays better than you, not because he's played so long. I know of guys who shoot well one handed, who can shoot with a broom, etc. Obviously those things aren't advisable. Also Top (follow) Bottom (draw/stop/stun) and center aren't english. English refers to side spin.

iusedtoberich said:

Watch any YouTube match with top 20 pros. They use spin on nearly every single shot. Don’t watch their tip, watch the reaction of the CB off the first rail.

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I don't believe that to be true. The last pro pool I watched was mostly the Mosconi Cup. Those guys seemed to do everything they could to stay center ball. I'm at work now but I look forward to watching some pool when I get out now.

To the OP, I would ask, if I threw 2 balls out randomly on the table and gave you BIH, could you get shape on the 2nd ball with using only center ball, top to bottom?

I'm guessing you, as many would respond, yes. If you can do it on 2 balls you should be able to do it on more.

strmanglr scott said:

I don't believe that to be true. The last pro pool I watched was mostly the Mosconi Cup. Those guys seemed to do everything they could to stay center ball. I'm at work now but I look forward to watching some pool when I get out now.

To the OP, I would ask, if I threw 2 balls out randomly on the table and gave you BIH, could you get shape on the 2nd ball with using only center ball, top to bottom?

I'm guessing you, as many would respond, yes. If you can do it on 2 balls you should be able to do it on more.

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Seemed is the key word. They use english in every shot....that they need to, which is most.

You’re not using enough english unless you’re miscuing at least once per game.

BRussell said:

You’re not using enough english unless you’re miscuing at least once per game.

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Solid advice, did you get that from an old guy at a pool hall?

strmanglr scott said:

I don't believe that to be true. The last pro pool I watched was mostly the Mosconi Cup. Those guys seemed to do everything they could to stay center ball. I'm at work now but I look forward to watching some pool when I get out now.

To the OP, I would ask, if I threw 2 balls out randomly on the table and gave you BIH, could you get shape on the 2nd ball with using only center ball, top to bottom?

I'm guessing you, as many would respond, yes. If you can do it on 2 balls you should be able to do it on more.

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The last paragraph is ridiculous. If you don't see what's wrong with it, I don't think I can reach you, anyway.

Here is a fun experiment for you. Put two balls on the middle diamond on opposite short rails. Then try various ways on getting from one to the other. I don't think words will get through, so maybe that will help, IDK.

The part about the pros is also wrong, but I can forgive that because it's often difficult to actually see the spin, even with the spotted cueball. You have to watch the reaction off the rails carefully, many times to really see minute amounts of spin that often separate the winners from the also-rans.

Straightpool_99 said:

The last paragraph is ridiculous. If you don't see what's wrong with it, I don't think I can reach you, anyway.

Here is a fun experiment for you. Put two balls on the middle diamond on opposite short rails. Then try various ways on getting from one to the other. I don't think words will get through, so maybe that will help, IDK.

The part about the pros is also wrong, but I can forgive that because it's often difficult to actually see the spin, even with the spotted cueball. You have to watch the reaction off the rails carefully, many times to really see minute amounts of spin that often separate the winners from the also-rans.

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I thought of that very shot when I wrote it. Do look at the qualifiers I put in.

strmanglr scott said:

I thought of that very shot when I wrote it. Do look at the qualifiers I put in.

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I believe you. It's just that the specific experiment/shot was not meant to illustrate what is possible or not. It is in fact entirely possible to find an angle, such that you are almost 100% to get from one of those to the other, without sidespin, and without scratching.

I wanted to illustrate that even though it may be possible to run two, three, nine or 14 balls without sidespin, that doesn't tell you that you SHOULD do it that way. Everyone makes errors. The trick is to find routes that minimize the impact of those errors.

brizzle
here is my 2 cents
learning to play shape creating the correct angle via vertical axis tip placement
eliminates the variable of the effects of spin with regard to aiming /throw/and the effects of a mishit causing too much or too little spin sending the cue ball off the line you want (i guess you could say the same for vertical axis)
thereby eliminating variables which should increase consistency
my house pro talks about hitting a shot with a "twist"
which means a quarter tip of english to "help " turn the cue ball off the rail
when needed
the key is it keeps your going thru the core of the cue ball
and with a low defection shaft there is minimal adjustment for aiming
i am not saying you never need english
but i agree it is often overutilized