Today's pro level versus the pros of 1986

pacain said:

Jam , I saw Keith in the early 70's I believe in Baton Rouge , and he had on a tee shirt that read " The world has the 8 " . I bet he wasn't 20 years old. If he played on Simonis, Diamond tables , lighter cue balls, controlled environments , he might not have ever missed . Same for Efren & Buddy Hall .

Click to expand...

Did some mention lighter balls?


Lol

It's very true. Some people actually think the modern pool balls are no different than the balls from back when.

When I hear someone say there's no difference, I start questioning their abilities and / or experience.

Good post. Simple and str8 to the point.

Jeff

Efren's prime

JoeyInCali said:

I think it's kinda silly to think Efren did not have the stroke during the slow cloth era.
He grew up on slow cloth and wet conditions.
That's how he had that funny bicycle and dart stroke .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HPA_l09S0I
There's Efren giving Earl all he can handle and Earl was lucky to win.
Slow cloth and full of people small venue.
I've seen Efren do wild things with the cue ball on humid conditions.
He knew how to spin the ball right

Efren did not have the power break that Earl, Sigel and Varner had.
If Bustamante broke for him, I think he beats them all easily.
The 80's was not Efren's prime in the US.
It was around 94' to '97.
And he was a competent 3-cushion player btw.
He has the stroke.
Saw him use a Meucci upstairs at the Hollywood Billiards playing 3-c in '96.

Click to expand...

Efren told me that his prime years in rotation games occurred between 18-22 years old, before he came to the US in 1985.

Here's my take.
I've been watching the best in the world in person and on video since the early '60s.
Overall today's players are better in all games.
Mosconi dominated straight pool for about 20 years.
If a young Mosconi was playing today I don't think he would be so dominate.

measureman said:

Here's my take.
I've been watching the best in the world in person and on video since the early '60s.
Overall today's players are better in all games.
Mosconi dominated straight pool for about 20 years.
If a young Mosconi was playing today I don't think he would be so dominate.

Click to expand...

Do you think there is anyone playing straight pool today who is better than Mosconi?

PoolBum said:

Do you think there is anyone playing straight pool today who is better than Mosconi?

Click to expand...

John Schmidt.

straight pool is almost never played today in competition. and when it is, many of the top rated pool players don't even enter

jay helfert said:

I think the talent pool in Straight Pool has declined due to lack of interest in the game. The last great era for 14.1 were the days of Mizerak, Sigel, Varner, Hopkins, Rempe, West, Martin and Diliberto. There were many other great players back then I've failed to mention.

Click to expand...

Yeah, straight pool is not a big draw any more. I was mostly commenting on the Nine Ball One Pocket and even Banks.
Used to be a small group of great bank pool players , now I heard there were 400 plus at the Derby in the banks.
A lot of them are dead money, but I think of all the games, a scuff has a better chance of beating top players at banks, than any of the other games {Still not good , but better than the others. especially short rack banks}

jay helfert said:

This video was made many years after his prime and look at how solid he could still hit the balls. I was fortunate to see him play when he was still the GOAT at Banks. He doesn't even count the full racks he ran while practicing, only those he ran in a match or money game. I used to have a copy of his exhibition poster that proclaimed his world record of 37 bsnks in a row. I seriously doubt that record will ever be beaten. A player would have to bank five and out in seven consecutive racks of short rack banks and then make three to start the next rack! Good luck with that. I've yet to hear about a player banking out the first three racks, although Jason Miller and John Brumback came close.

Click to expand...

wow, what a player
man banks so clean in "old" age
can't imagine what he was like
in his "prime"

sees real cool and humble, too.

PoolBum said:

Do you think there is anyone playing straight pool today who is better than Mosconi?

Click to expand...

No I don't.
Mosconi would still be the best today as far as pattern play .
But the game has changed.
In Mosconi's day it was a very conservitive style.
Todays players are mainly 9 and 10 ball players.
They will attempt and make shots to continue a run that the old timers would play safe.
Mosconi's style of play if he used it would make it harder for him to totaly dominate.
Now a young Mosconi of today that changed to a more aggressive style would do much better.

Franky4Eyes said:

John Schmidt.

Click to expand...

You're dreaming. Runnin balls for s@*ts-n-giggle ain't s^*t. Let us know when he starts rackin' up world titles against stiff competition. Mosconi would torture this guy.

The knowledge and effort put into breaking seems to be on a higher level nowadays than in the 1980's. Or is it? How do the stats from that accustats Busch tournament in 1986 match up to today?

JoeyInCali said:

I think it's kinda silly to think Efren did not have the stroke during the slow cloth era.
He grew up on slow cloth and wet conditions.
That's how he had that funny bicycle and dart stroke .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HPA_l09S0I
There's Efren giving Earl all he can handle and Earl was lucky to win.
Slow cloth and full of people small venue.
I've seen Efren do wild things with the cue ball on humid conditions.
He knew how to spin the ball right

Efren did not have the power break that Earl, Sigel and Varner had.
If Bustamante broke for him, I think he beats them all easily.
The 80's was not Efren's prime in the US.
It was around 94' to '97.
And he was a competent 3-cushion player btw.
He has the stroke.
Saw him use a Meucci upstairs at the Hollywood Billiards playing 3-c in '96.

Click to expand...

That was a hell of a match. I'm not even sure how Earl won that.

Did you see that first round match, Incardona over Strickland, 11-4. Earl's TPA .556!

If you watch Accu-Stats matches from the 90’s, Billy Incardona would say “850 is the threshold for world class pool”.

I wonder if he would say that today. Seems 900 is.


Sent from my iPad using AzBilliards Forums

garczar said:

You're dreaming. Runnin balls for s@*ts-n-giggle ain't s^*t. Let us know when he starts rackin' up world titles against stiff competition. Mosconi would torture this guy.

Click to expand...

You mad bro? Lol

If there were incentives for today's players to learn 14.1, I imagine they would eventually surpass the greats at that game too. Today we truly have the most gifted and skilled players ever, fueled by the expansion of billiards internationally.

garczar said:

IMO the biggest difference is in the kicking game. Until Efren came along you saw most guys kicking just to hit and avoid BIH. Once ER showed up in '85 the kicking became much more focused and important to success. I don't think current players shoot any better but kicking(and jumping) are much bigger part.

Click to expand...

This is correct

jay helfert said:

Many factors to consider here. Contrary to what many are saying, there were also some tight pocketed tables in use back then. Most of the best action rooms had a couple of tight tables for the better players to compete on. The 7/11 in Manhattan had a ten footer that could make you weak in the knees. The Peter Vitalie tables we used at the Los Angeles Invitational in 1987 were the toughest I've ever seen in any pro tournament.

Click to expand...

The front table at McGirr's in New York had pockets as tight as a drum, and further back in the room there was a 5' x 10' with pockets you couldn't fit two balls into. Brunswick Billiards in DC had a similar 5' x 10', and the front table at Randolph Hills Billiards in suburban Washington was an ultra-tight 4.5' x 9'. One road player after another left that room broke and cursing at that table. And as Jay says, I doubt if other cities didn't have similar tables in at least a few of their action rooms.

That said, the pro scene is clearly much better today than 30 or 40 years ago, but that's because the field has become internationalized, and because Texas Express rules force players to develop kicking and jumping skills that weren't necessary back when the game allowed pushouts after any shot, not just after the break. Buddy and Siegel and Earl in their primes could compete with any player today, but to win as many tournaments as they did back then, they'd have to navigate a MUCH deeper field of predominately non-U.S. players.

the break is an area that has changed

The break is an area that has changed. A handful of people showed it could be a skill then there was no choice but for others competing with them to get with the program.

In the seventies and eighties it was knock hell out of the rack and hope for the best. Players varied break speed and cue ball locations trying to increase their odds of pocketing balls but few were trying to pocket a wing ball and have a shot on the one in the upper left pocket like a player might be trying for today. It was much more poke and hope.

If a player from the eighties could play today he would quickly realize he had to put time into the break and into using jump cues. It wouldn't take him long to get with the program. Pool isn't a sport where greater speed and strength have made today's players better to a significant degree. Equipment and some different skill sets are the primary reasons that today's players seem superior. Better equipment and training on skill sets are both easily acquired. No question that the talent pool is wider today. This does reduce the number of events that someone with the same world ranking will win but it doesn't affect their skills or their ranking.

Old players in their peak would be monsters today, today's players going back to the eighties would be monsters too. Winners find a way to win.

Hu

Agreed - equipment. Don’t forget the magic/accu/... racks.