I'm a fool/revelations

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evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
so I recognize a few shots I could be better at, decide to target those
one is going up and down for shape..I'm often trying to finesse balls instead of hittinm
I'm messing around with center ball for the shot, and when I say center
I mean dead center on the rock, a cue ball position I rarely employ
and I realize how little I know about this foreign land
so I say hey, why not trying shooting a rack that way, just using center ball, no left/right
so I'm shooting around and then, it hits me-
center ball means vertical axis!

I'm not joking when I say I thought playing "center ball" literally meant playing
the center of the cue ball.
can you believe it
and of course, in my mind, I'm seein yall post about it, thinking
what there's no way a player can move around the table
using just the dead center of the cue ball all the time
so I didn't worry about it, and just went back to aiming wherever seemed like a good idea

now that we've established my foolishness :thumbup:
so I'm shooting strictly center axis, top to bottom, bottom to top, no left/right
and I'm slicing racks up! (by my standards anyway)
sure I'm still doggin shots here and there, but I'm also amazed at how easy I found it
to not use english
I'm seeing shots and positions in new ways
like instead of using left/right, I'm working the pocket more, hitting balls differently
and letting speed do the work, which appears to be more predictable, without the english
and when I wasn't sure about position, I was getting good rolls more often than not
I think maybe because my lines again, were just a little more predictable
I was able to shoot entire 9-ball racks just with the vertical axis..
I mean it, I really had no idea

anyway, I'm obviously in the beginning stages of playing this way
and there is no doubt in my mind that english can be not only helpful, but necessary
and honestly, I love spinning the rock:D
but I'm really excited to shoot with these new eyes, and keep building
and expanding my game
man, some days you just wake up :)
 
ShootingArts

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
Congratulations!

Congratulations!

I mean that most sincerely. Some people never get to the point of recognizing that speed and angles is the easy way to play pool. Many get upset if you even say that. "Got to spin the rock to play pool today!!"

Generally a person's game matures from just trying to make a ball, to draw, to sidespin, and then finally to using speed and angles to do the work. Some get hung up on the spin the rock stage and never get past it.

Nights I played on bar tables all night it wasn't unusual to play six or eight hours and need to use more than a touch of side once or twice. I might use it more, but it would be on shots when the table was near empty and I was clowning around rolling up on usually the money ball for a tap in.

Now that you have discovered the easy way to play pool I will give you one tip, a rule that stood me in good stead for years. Plan your run so that if you are going to use a lot of sidespin, pocketing the ball is easy. If you watch the best shooting what usually trips them up is having to use considerable side on a shot that is already difficult. Us lesser mortals can benefit greatly from avoiding that situation.

Have fun and enjoy your newfound playing style. It makes pool much much easier as you are discovering. Liking to drink and party as a young man I enjoyed the challenge tables in bars and letting others pay for my and my friend's partying. Many a time over the years I had somebody's significant other approach me after play and say it wasn't fair, I got all the easy shots. "Yes ma'am, some nights it is like that." Speed and angles instead of spin probably triples the number of easy shots you shoot. Shape gets easier and easier when you are only slightly modifying where the cue ball wants to go anyway.

Hu
 
C

Catalin

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Center ball means center ball, no significant amounts of top or bottom. The words are self explanatory. And you CAN move the ball around using natural angle.

Julian
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Catalin said:
Center ball means center ball, no significant amounts of top or bottom. The words are self explanatory.
Click to expand...
I think most times people use that term they mean vertical center axis, as evergruven discovered.

And you CAN move the ball around using natural angle.
Click to expand...
Yes, and hitting dead center ball is one way to do that (with "stun rollthrough"). But otherwise (more often) I want low for stop/stun/draw or a little high for rolling follow (to avoid sliding the CB).

pj
chgo
 
JessEm

JessEm

AzB Goldmember
Silver Member
If you REALLY wanna try center ball... and practice speed and angles and cheating pockets, shoot a few racks with a phenolic tip. It'll sraignten ya out right quick. No pun intended.
 
gregcantrall

gregcantrall

Center Ball
Silver Member
on occasion side is needed

Here is a clip of Ronnie O'Sullivan, starts with a shot that he uses side followed by a shot that the commentator can't figure how he gets shape. Ronnie makes it look like the shape just comes natural. The whole clip showcases his genius on the table. From the blue to pink he again shows that there is no "wrong side" for him.
https://youtu.be/kAdIQT-1CMs?t=120

Center ball is my starting point. Then move up or down for position. On very rare occasions side.
 
JazzyJeff87

JazzyJeff87

AzB Plutonium Member
Silver Member
JessEm said:
If you REALLY wanna try center ball... and practice speed and angles and cheating pockets, shoot a few racks with a phenolic tip. It'll sraignten ya out right quick. No pun intended.
Click to expand...

I do this with my bk3, it’s fun to run racks with sometimes when I’m feeling it. I also have this “sure stroke” I think it’s called, a mike Massey thing. It’s a rounded hard plastic thing you slide over your tip...you have to hit the CB basically dead center to not miscue and I’ll run through balls with that sometimes to remind me not to get lazy and rely so much on side spin. Then I’ll take it off and the “freedom” I have to go low or high is like getting out of prison
 
strmanglr scott

strmanglr scott

All about Focus
Silver Member
I used to be all about English, felt it could help on practically every shot.

Then I played a guy routinely, many years ago, who barely moved the cue ball. The way he played, the CB rarely had much power on it and the CB usually wouldn't travel v far after contact w the OB. Never had anyone run so many racks on me and make it look so effortless.

He didn't tell me what he was doing but I picked up on it. He used center axis and new how to manipulate the stun line v well.

Now, I seldom use English. When I do, often it's because I'm gonna run the CB off a rail and want the spin to get better position.

Whenever I see a shot, I look at it as if friction is non-existent and determine natural shape off the shot at hand. Then I see where I can be and want to be. Stop, follow, draw will do it? English rarely comes in to the picture. Seeing the run out helps greatly.

One of the best drills, stop, follow and draw, perfectly straight. Start w short shots and progressively increase distance.

Your game is about to get way better evergruven.
 
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JackOfNoTrades

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hi Evergruven, I’m an amateur so pardon me if my question is dumb. What I’m getting is that you’re literally hitting the CB with your cue in the center. However, are you using any draw, follow, stun, or just allowing natural roll-off tangent?

Thanks!
 
Scratch85

Scratch85

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. You all are giving away one of the simplest secrets for free! At least play $5 sets for this kind of info.


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
 
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evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
JackOfNoTrades said:
Hi Evergruven, I’m an amateur so pardon me if my question is dumb. What I’m getting is that you’re literally hitting the CB with your cue in the center. However, are you using any draw, follow, stun, or just allowing natural roll-off tangent?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

yo jack!
I *thought* that when others said center ball, they meant literally hitting the ball right in the center.
what I came to realize is that center ball could mean that, but it could also easily mean
hitting the center of the cue ball all along the cue ball's vertical axis
top, bottom, and everywhere in between
hope that makes sense

thanks all for the comments and notes of encouragement :thumbup:
 
S

SJpilot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think I screwed myself over by building bad habits in this regard. I always find myself hitting a bit of outside English on basically every shot. If I need inside my process is to aim for high outside then use backhand english to pivot. It's basically the opposite of what I hear from people that you should use a little bit of inside to be consistent. I guess I just had too many games under my belt before I started doing any reading but I can't get center ball to feel right.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
 
Cornerman

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
Catalin said:
Center ball means center ball, no significant amounts of top or bottom. The words are self explanatory. And you CAN move the ball around using natural angle.

Julian
Click to expand...

Not in anybody’s fantasy world. Oh wait, yes in a lot of Internet fantasy world. However reality trumps fantasy. All top players use spin, nearly 100% of the time. And if we just count when they spin with some kind of left or right English, at any match in any professional event, I have never seen a number less than 50%. And I’ve done over a thousand hours of commentary on professional matches.

Do I think amateur players should get a baseline with center ball, including follow and draw, staying on the vertical Center? Of course. But you’d be fooling yourself if you think you could play excellent pool and not use English on most of your shots. You’d be swimming up river rather than going with the flow. That’s reality, not fantasy.

And I took snapshots of some recent snooker championships, especially with Mark Selby, and he was doing the outside English thing on basic cut shots, the white not going anywhere near the rails. So let’s not all pretend that all slugger players use just the vertical center either. I think often times the cue ball is just too small for viewers to realize that they’re off to the left or right just like we do in American Pool.

Freddie <~~~ flowing
 
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Cornerman

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
Catalin said:
Freddie, you must have misread my post. I only made a statement about what "center ball" means. Nothing I said constitutes a recommendation or judgement about using spin.

Julian
Click to expand...
That's fine. I made the judgement on "And you CAN move the ball around using natural angle" since it was connected to the center ball statement.
 
C

Catalin

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Cornerman said:
That's fine. I made the judgement on "And you CAN move the ball around using natural angle" since it was connected to the center ball statement.
Click to expand...
That was only in reply to the OP who said you couldn't. Technically it is possible with good speed control. Ralf Souquet comes to mind, he uses predominantly natural angle lately I feel.

Julian
 
Tin Man

Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Agreed

Cornerman said:
Not in anybody’s fantasy world. Oh wait, yes in a lot of Internet fantasy world. However reality trumps fantasy. All top players use spin, nearly 100% of the time. And if we just count when they spin with some kind of left or right English, at any match in any professional event, I have never seen a number less than 50%. And I’ve done over a thousand hours of commentary on professional matches.

Do I think amateur players should get a baseline with center ball, including follow and draw, staying on the vertical Center? Of course. But you’d be fooling yourself if you think you could play excellent pool and not use English on most of your shots. You’d be swimming up river rather than going with the flow. That’s reality, not fantasy.

And I took snapshots of some recent snooker championships, especially with Mark Selby, and he was doing the outside English thing on basic cut shots, the white not going anywhere near the rails. So let’s not all pretend that all slugger players use just the vertical center either. I think often times the cue ball is just too small for viewers to realize that they’re off to the left or right just like we do in American Pool.

Freddie <~~~ flowing
Click to expand...

Nice post.

Oddly enough I agree with this post but also appreciate the original post as well. Side spin can be overdone. It can become a crutch. It can complicate simple situations. Sticking with Center is a good way to learn not just how to play natural position, but also how to play patterns and angles that allow natural position.

But sidespin is a huge part of the game. Most people consider Efren the greatest of all time and this man used side spin on almost every shot. He is hardly the exception. It should be mastered to the point it feels like Center ball.

I do think the Center ball legend is a bit of a tall tale. Maybe not for straight pool, but certainly for rotation. There is some truth in it, but it can be a exaggerated.

I also think there is a world of difference between using a little helping or hold up English to change speed or influence angle versus spinning the ball like a top. I think it makes sense to use Center when shooting basic stop/stun/roll shots, using traces of spin when coming off a rail to fit the situation, and trying to avoid spinning top shots unless things are desperate. Also agreed that extreme spin, speed, and distance don’t mix well. There is a time and place but hopefully not when it’s hill-hill!

In short, OP had a legitimate breakthrough but this is a game of balance and too much of anything, even Center, can be counterproductive.
 
ShootingArts

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
snooker

Snooker players have started copying pool players oddly enough. I don't see anything but beautiful well shaped tips today and agreed, more side spin. Go back a few years and you see tips that are flat and badly mushroomed and people running perfect 147's with those terrible tips. The shape of a tip tells it's own story. These players were spending most of their time hitting near center ball. It wasn't that they couldn't spin the cue ball like a wild thing if they needed to, they just largely made sure they didn't need to.

The top pool pro's don't miss often. However, when they do it is often because they are combining a fairly difficult shot with considerable side spin. Heavy side spin trips up the best. Anything that trips up the best trips up lesser mortals even more often. The difficulty dealing with side spin is driving the multimillion dollar low deflection and carbon fiber market. The high dollar tip and chalk markets too. I'll stick to plain tips and Master chalk hasn't failed me only chalking before a game and when I need to use more than a half tip of side spin or near maximum draw or follow. I'd feel silly using a forty dollar tip and forty dollar chalk when neither would add to my game. I can't remember my last miscue.

Different strokes for different folks and I never mind other people doing things the hard way! I haven't and won't watch john's 626 but I'll make book that he didn't get there using a lot of side spin and the ball zinging around the table most shots.

Hu
 
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