Man playing as woman at APA nationals

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StuartTKelley

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
CreeDo said:
It's funny we still fuss and argue about this.

Sorry, I know some of you guys miss the 50's when women and gays knew their place, but the cavemen have lost. It's 2016. Transgender people get to openly live how they want. You don't get to shout them down or embarrass them into submission anymore.

"wah but it's an unfair advantage!!!"

I just saw some 5'5" women in the olympics who can lift 350 pounds over their heads. Give me a break.

Nobody is harmed by letting someone who lives as a woman, play pool as a woman.
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The fact remains that you are what you were born as biologically. Live openly however you like but don't expect to be accepted by everyone and don't expect the rules to bend to suit your lifestyle choices and then call it discrimination when they don't.
Born in 75 and not a caveman!
 
Celophanewrap

Celophanewrap

Call me Grace
Silver Member
StuartTKelley said:
The fact remains that you are what you were born as biologically. Live openly however you like but don't expect to be accepted by everyone and don't expect the rules to bend to suit your lifestyle choices and then call it discrimination when they don't.
Born in 75 and not a caveman!
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I can appreciate your position, but you realize that times can and do often change
 
GideonF

GideonF

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
nine_ball6970 said:
Apparently the women who were on the other team do not agree with Norma playing in a Women's team event. Are they entitled to have that opinion or not? We can argue all we want as men but this situation had nothing to do with men's point of view on the issue. Women had a problem with it and the APA sided with them.
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Well, we know that at least some women had a problem with it and the APA apparently deemed Norma ineligible. We also have Tina's post indicating that Norma played as a woman for years in San Diego without any objection from the women there.

We further know that there are some people who will seize any chance to try use a rulebook to get a victory, so I don't know whether the women who objected to Norma playing did so because of some considered opinion or because they thought they could rely on a rule to disqualify the player/team.

So I'm not sure we know what women APA players as a whole think.

I do agree with you wholeheartedly that the issue is one that we men shouldn't be deciding. The league (and all leagues with different male/female divisions) should turn their minds to this issue and come up with a rule, in consultation with their women players (the rule someone posted here did not answer the question, as it just said males and females). One simple rule could be that the player must have government issued ID listing them as a woman. I assume that at least in some US states a person who is transgendered can get ID reflecting their new gender. Sounds like Norma's ID did not do so.

This may not be the ideal rule (those who believe that 'once a man never a woman' will not be happy, and others might say that this rule draws the line in the wrong place), but at least it is a clear line and doesn't involve the league in requiring doctor's notes or conducting some sort of testing. But as I said, really this isn't something that I think we men should be deciding.
 
SARDiver

SARDiver

JCC Chief
Silver Member
GideonF said:
<snip>


We further know that there are some people who will seize any chance to try use a rulebook to get a victory, so I don't know whether the women who objected to Norma playing did so because of some considered opinion or because they thought they could rely on a rule to disqualify the player/team.

So I'm not sure we know what women APA players as a whole think.

I do agree with you wholeheartedly that the issue is one that we men shouldn't be deciding. The league (and all leagues with different male/female divisions) should turn their minds to this issue and come up with a rule, in consultation with their women players (the rule someone posted here did not answer the question, as it just said males and females). One simple rule could be that the player must have government issued ID listing them as a woman. I assume that at least in some US states a person who is transgendered can get ID reflecting their new gender. Sounds like Norma's ID did not do so. <snip>
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Why shouldn't men be able to discuss this and have any hand in the decision? It's not like this or similar events won't have women (trans-men, if you prefer) attempting to play against the men. And if we want a voice, can't we identify as women long enough to be heard?

Also, I could be mistaken, but I thought the new IDs were generally issued to post-operative transsexuals, not "transgendered", which as I understand it simply means that there's a mismatch between brain and body.
 
girlwon1

girlwon1

registered user
Silver Member
whammo57 said:
While what you say is true................. Norma falsified her APA application when he indicated that he was a woman........ and signed the document..............

He and his whole team should have been DQ........... they all knew and aided the deception...............

Kim
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Why are you on such the war path? You're so upset that an 82 year old transgender person came to Nationals, lost every match she played in, and was made ineligible once the APA checked her ID?

I'll write this for you again. For going on the last almost 15 years, not one of us ever asked about whether she was a man or not. Her team did not know, nor did the league operator.

Why are you so upset that you are yelling for heads to roll here?

You hope she gets punished...well, she has. She was made ineligible, sat out the tournament that she was excited to go to. She has feelings, thoughts and goals like the rest of us. And then to read some people calling her "it" on your thread that you posted publicly. Believe me, she's getting the full wrath of all of it right now.

When I wrote that previous post, it was to help people understand the truth of the matter, and the teams intent. To them, she was just another female that played on their team. To the LO, she was just who she said she was. You fault the LO? Do you really think that one should approach someone of the transgender community and ask to see their ID just to see if they have a dick or not? How sensitive is that? Norma said she was female, and that was the end of it.

The fault lies with Norma here. Please stop making disparaging remarks about our LO, and about people you know nothing about, stating your opinions like they are facts.

Also, for the record, I do not agree that transgendered men that have not gone through the complete surgery should be allowed to play. I think Norma was wrong knowing what she knows about herself to have joined a ladies league. I think the National APA made the right decision once they were made aware of the situation.
 
L

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
girlwon1 said:
Why are you on such the war path? You're so upset that an 82 year old transgender person came to Nationals, lost every match she played in, and was made ineligible once the APA checked her ID?

I'll write this for you again. For going on the last almost 15 years, not one of us ever asked about whether she was a man or not. Her team did not know, nor did the league operator.

Why are you so upset that you are yelling for heads to roll here?

You hope she gets punished...well, she has. She was made ineligible, sat out the tournament that she was excited to go to. She has feelings, thoughts and goals like the rest of us. And then to read some people calling her "it" on your thread that you posted publicly. Believe me, she's getting the full wrath of all of it right now.

When I wrote that previous post, it was to help people understand the truth of the matter, and the teams intent. To them, she was just another female that played on their team. To the LO, she was just who she said she was. You fault the LO? Do you really think that one should approach someone of the transgender community and ask to see their ID just to see if they have a dick or not? How sensitive is that? Norma said she was female, and that was the end of it.

The fault lies with Norma here. Please stop making disparaging remarks about our LO, and about people you know nothing about, stating your opinions like they are facts.

Also, for the record, I do not agree that transgendered men that have not gone through the complete surgery should be allowed to play. I think Norma was wrong knowing what she knows about herself to have joined a ladies league. I think the National APA made the right decision once they were made aware of the situation.
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Gosh I wish my phone would let me give you rep. Gonna give you thumbs up in this post:thumbup::thumbup:

I agree with you completely
 
BRussell

BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you just dress up as someone else to cheat at pool or falsify your identity, that's one thing. But it sounds like this person lives as a woman. I don't really get it, and I REALLY REALLY can't imagine myself doing it. But I do know that because this kind of thing makes people so uncomfortable, they become the target of the worst discrimination, teasing, bullying, being beaten up, killed, etc., that I've decided I ought to just keep my discomfort to myself and let them do what they want without me making things more difficult for them.
 
SARDiver

SARDiver

JCC Chief
Silver Member
girlwon1 said:
Why are you on such the war path? You're so upset that an 82 year old transgender person came to Nationals, lost every match she played in, and was made ineligible once the APA checked her ID?

I'll write this for you again. For going on the last almost 15 years, not one of us ever asked about whether she was a man or not. Her team did not know, nor did the league operator.

Why are you so upset that you are yelling for heads to roll here?

You hope she gets punished...well, she has. She was made ineligible, sat out the tournament that she was excited to go to. She has feelings, thoughts and goals like the rest of us. And then to read some people calling her "it" on your thread that you posted publicly. Believe me, she's getting the full wrath of all of it right now.

When I wrote that previous post, it was to help people understand the truth of the matter, and the teams intent. To them, she was just another female that played on their team. To the LO, she was just who she said she was. You fault the LO? Do you really think that one should approach someone of the transgender community and ask to see their ID just to see if they have a dick or not? How sensitive is that? Norma said she was female, and that was the end of it.

The fault lies with Norma here. Please stop making disparaging remarks about our LO, and about people you know nothing about, stating your opinions like they are facts.

Also, for the record, I do not agree that transgendered men that have not gone through the complete surgery should be allowed to play. I think Norma was wrong knowing what she knows about herself to have joined a ladies league. I think the National APA made the right decision once they were made aware of the situation.
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If you think the DQ was the right call, why are you so upset that someone else thinks so also, and is taking a position that is in conflict with those who see no issue here?

Is it because the poster is referring to Norma as "he"? If you're upset about that, how can you be upset that the DQ occurred, since that was done because Norma is a "he".

Forgive me. I'm really trying to understand why you're upset.
 
Celophanewrap

Celophanewrap

Call me Grace
Silver Member
whammo57 said:
While what you say is true................. Norma falsified her APA application when he indicated that he was a woman........ and signed the document..............

He and his whole team should have been DQ........... they all knew and aided the deception...............

Kim
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So you've seen Norma's APA membership application and you know this for certain?
 
jasonlaus

jasonlaus

Rep for Smorg
Silver Member
Should Norma be excluded? YES, based off rules.
Should Norma be excluded in her later years? Compassion can rule here - yes. Is it normal? No.
The women who go pay their own way, win or lose against women!
At the end of the day does it matter? Yes, to some/most women.
I could care less!

And yes! I'd date the "woman" in her 2016 tranny average pic without knowing. If you wouldnt, well....... nobody can tell the difference
 
jasonlaus

jasonlaus

Rep for Smorg
Silver Member
I wish we didnt have to deal with this bullcrap - you have 2 sides - I dont wanna see it, and you are forced to look at it(and accept it) leave me alone and I'll leave you alone. Whats so hard to understand we are people and accept different things? Dont call me a bigot and I wont call you a(insert word/s) live and let live! This goes for people who are conservative also - dont shove your shot down our throats and we'll problably more than not agree(in some form)
 
girlwon1

girlwon1

registered user
Silver Member
SARDiver said:
If you think the DQ was the right call, why are you so upset that someone else thinks so also, and is taking a position that is in conflict with those who see no issue here?

Is it because the poster is referring to Norma as "he"? If you're upset about that, how can you be upset that the DQ occurred, since that was done because Norma is a "he".

Forgive me. I'm really trying to understand why you're upset.
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Hey SARDiver,

I'm not at all upset that she is referring to Norma as a "he." That is exactly what he is. I also wrote that I am not upset that Norma was made ineligible, and write that the fault likes with her (Norma).

I'm replying to what she wrote on a Facebook post, as well as what she wrote here on AZ. She keeps writing that she feels that the team should be disqualified, and the league operator penalized. She's calling out everyone because of her assertion that we all must have known that she was hiding a penis under her skirt. My post was to stop the guessing and questions, from someone who knows Norma, every member of her team, the LO, and is from San Diego and has played in the local chapter since 2001.

You'll see below what she wrote on a FB, in a post set to public view. She writes that the team knowingly cheated as well as the LO. In reality, AGAIN, Norma played 3 matches before she was made ineligible (again, as an 82 year old, career 4), in which she LOST every match for the team. By saying that the team cheated, which implies that some sort of advantage was gained, is disparaging to the team and our LO.
 

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GideonF

GideonF

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
girlwon1 said:
Hey SARDiver,



I'm not at all upset that she is referring to Norma as a "he." That is exactly what he is. I also wrote that I am not upset that Norma was made ineligible, and write that the fault likes with her (Norma).



I'm replying to what she wrote on a Facebook post, as well as what she wrote here on AZ. She keeps writing that she feels that the team should be disqualified, and the league operator penalized. She's calling out everyone because of her assertion that we all must have known that she was hiding a penis under her skirt. My post was to stop the guessing and questions, from someone who knows Norma, every member of her team, the LO, and is from San Diego and has played in the local chapter since 2001.
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Tina,

Do you happen to know what the specific APA rule or policy on transgender players? At what point (if any) is someone born a man allowed to compete in the women's event?

I don't understand the vitriol behind the posts you cite, but it would be helpful to know how clear the rule is (or isn't).
 
SARDiver

SARDiver

JCC Chief
Silver Member
girlwon1 said:
Hey SARDiver,

I'm not at all upset that she is referring to Norma as a "he." That is exactly what he is. I also wrote that I am not upset that Norma was made ineligible, and write that the fault likes with her (Norma).

I'm replying to what she wrote on a Facebook post, as well as what she wrote here on AZ. She keeps writing that she feels that the team should be disqualified, and the league operator penalized. She's calling out everyone because of her assertion that we all must have known that she was hiding a penis under her skirt. My post was to stop the guessing and questions, from someone who knows Norma, every member of her team, the LO, and is from San Diego and has played in the local chapter since 2001.
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Ah! Fair enough. Thank you. I think it may be natural to assume that after 15 years, the subject might have come up and the other team members may have known. Do I think it's necessarily a good practice to accuse them of outright cheating? Maybe not, but if it's obvious enough for another team to tell that they need to ask for an ID, one would think it likely that Norma's team members may have made the same conclusion but didn't wish to follow up.

Jus' sayin'.
 
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