Man playing as woman at APA nationals

GideonF said:

Tina,

Do you happen to know what the specific APA rule or policy on transgender players? At what point (if any) is someone born a man allowed to compete in the women's event?

I don't understand the vitriol behind the posts you cite, but it would be helpful to know how clear the rule is (or isn't).

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SARDiver said:

Ah! Fair enough. Thank you. I think it may be natural to assume that after 15 years, the subject might have come up and the other team members may have known. Do I think it's necessarily a good practice to accuse them of outright cheating? Maybe not, but if it's obvious enough for another team to tell that they need to ask for an ID, one would think it likely that Norma's team members may have made the same conclusion but didn't wish to follow up.

Jus' sayin'.

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billiardthought said:

I see you are deflecting.

I would not consider dating a woman who used to be a man because I would not be able to have children with this person. Just like I would not consider dating someone who was born with any issue preventing them from having kids.

Does a woman have to be able to become pregnant to still be a woman?

I will ask again, why does my CHOICE classify someones gender. We should be talking about the definition of a woman, not how my choices can change someones gender.

Neil, you said the argument was so strong, but I hope now you realize the question of the definition is strong, but this argument sucks.

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SARDiver said:

Why shouldn't men be able to discuss this and have any hand in the decision? It's not like this or similar events won't have women (trans-men, if you prefer) attempting to play against the men. And if we want a voice, can't we identify as women long enough to be heard?

Also, I could be mistaken, but I thought the new IDs were generally issued to post-operative transsexuals, not "transgendered", which as I understand it simply means that there's a mismatch between brain and body.

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nine_ball6970 said:

I am not sure I understand your argument. If women want to play against men, they can. Pretty much anywhere there is an Open Division and a Women's division. Open division does not exclude anybody willing to put up the entry fee to compete. There isn't a different bracket for Men only. Are you saying there are men who would protest a woman playing in an event?

Also, I may be naïve but I would think it is rare for a woman to become a man in the transgender community.

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Rhea said:

1 out of every 4 transpeople are men who were born female. Just FYI. And there are more than 2 million people in the United States that are transsexual, even more than that that are transgender, and even more than that that are LGBT.

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girlwon1 said:

Why are you on such the war path? You're so upset that an 82 year old transgender person came to Nationals, lost every match she played in, and was made ineligible once the APA checked her ID?

I'll write this for you again. For going on the last almost 15 years, not one of us ever asked about whether she was a man or not. Her team did not know, nor did the league operator.

Why are you so upset that you are yelling for heads to roll here?

You hope she gets punished...well, she has. She was made ineligible, sat out the tournament that she was excited to go to. She has feelings, thoughts and goals like the rest of us. And then to read some people calling her "it" on your thread that you posted publicly. Believe me, she's getting the full wrath of all of it right now.

When I wrote that previous post, it was to help people understand the truth of the matter, and the teams intent. To them, she was just another female that played on their team. To the LO, she was just who she said she was. You fault the LO? Do you really think that one should approach someone of the transgender community and ask to see their ID just to see if they have a dick or not? How sensitive is that? Norma said she was female, and that was the end of it.

The fault lies with Norma here. Please stop making disparaging remarks about our LO, and about people you know nothing about, stating your opinions like they are facts.

Also, for the record, I do not agree that transgendered men that have not gone through the complete surgery should be allowed to play. I think Norma was wrong knowing what she knows about herself to have joined a ladies league. I think the National APA made the right decision once they were made aware of the situation.

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ribdoner said:

quick adam's apple inspection obviates penis sneak a peak

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jasonlaus said:

Should Norma be excluded? YES, based off rules.
Should Norma be excluded in her later years? Compassion can rule here - yes. Is it normal? No.
The women who go pay their own way, win or lose against women!
At the end of the day does it matter? Yes, to some/most women.
I could care less!

And yes! I'd date the "woman" in her 2016 tranny average pic without knowing. If you wouldnt, well....... nobody can tell the difference

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Skippy27 said:

Please post where you are getting your facts from.

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jasonlaus said:

Gonna be a whole lot of silence on this one lol. But we know the answer

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Skippy27 said:

Please post where you are getting your facts from.

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nine_ball6970 said:

I am not sure I understand your argument. If women want to play against men, they can. Pretty much anywhere there is an Open Division and a Women's division. Open division does not exclude anybody willing to put up the entry fee to compete. There isn't a different bracket for Men only. Are you saying there are men who would protest a woman playing in an event?

Also, I may be naïve but I would think it is rare for a woman to become a man in the transgender community.

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Rhea said:

US census bureau estimated by jan 2011 that there were about 700,000 or approximately 0.3% of us citizens identified as the opposite gender of their birth sex.

US census bureau estimated by jan 2016 that the were slightly over 1.4 million or approximately 0.6% of us citizens identified as the opposite gender of their birth sex.

There are currently 324,437,230 people living in the USA. As of 08/18/2016 there are 2,271,060 people KNOWN living people in the USA that identify as Transsexual.

This is just the people who are out on government record not including people who are just starting hormones and have not changed any government paperwork yet.

Transgender is a much larger group of individuals than the sub group transsexual. A transsexual is one who is actually making physical changes to their body to become their target gender including body chemistry for secondary sexual characteristics, redistribution of body fat in the proportions of their target gender. As well production of pheremones identical to their target gender.

A transgender person could be a transsexual, however can also be someone who is just non gender conforming, i.e. one who has made no physical changes to their body whatsoever and only changes the way they dress and act.

I don't know the exact statistics but in general there are more trans women than there are trans men. If we go by the one I know in person, lets say a ratio of FtM 1:4 MtF.

You also have to bare in mind, how many actually come out and other things. But it does seem FtM usually get ignored, they find it much easier to integrate into society and also organisations such as TERF (Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists) simply view trans men as collateral damage while trans women are "misogynistic spies of the patriarchy".

Quite often when you think transgender, you think "man in a dress", you never even think of trans men. Fact is, there are fewer, not as easily noticed and not as heavily attacked (not to say attacks don't happen and they do suffer discrimination that is exclusively aimed at them which trans women do not suffer). Fact is though they are able to fly under the radar a lot easier though.

Statistically, there are more trans women than trans men.

One of my mates did a course in genetics and they explained how the Y chromosome is quite unstable in comparison to the X chromosome which is why conditions like this are more prevalent in males.

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jburkm002 said:

I asked my wife what she thought about a man dressed as a woman playing in leagues or tournaments. She said it was wrong. I then asked what about a man who transitioned to become a woman. Not necessarily a sex change but hormone therapy etc. She said that was OK.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

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jburkm002 said:

I asked my wife what she thought about a man dressed as a woman playing in leagues or tournaments. She said it was wrong. I then asked what about a man who transitioned to become a woman. Not necessarily a sex change but hormone therapy etc. She said that was OK.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

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sbpoolleague said:

I have always wondered if two women could sign up for scotch doubles

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