Components Necessary to Become a Pro Level Pool Player?

Tin Man · Dec 31, 2019

i don't disagree

Bob Jewett said:
And there have been two or three cases reported here of that. People who read Malcolm Gladwell and figured that all they would have to do is put in 10,000 hours and they would be playing Shane, Jayson or a Ko in the finals of the next pro event.

I don't think belief that you can be a champion is nearly as important a motivator for improvement as enjoying playing the game for whatever reason. The journey itself has to be rewarding.

That's the heck of it. Not everyone who goes all in succeeds to that level. But no one that succeeds to that level gets there without going all in.

So, what's the best strategy? For some they'd rather go all in and have a chance to reach the pinnacle of pool, even if they fail they'll have succeeded in finding what they were capable of and will live without regretting they didn't give themselves that chance. For most, a sacrifice of that nature would be insane because statistically speaking the odds of any kind of payoff in this world is minimal compared to the tradeoff of having no house, family, retirement, or diversity in their life.

Personally I agree that the best road for almost all of us is to consider this a hobby/obsession and just do the best with can with the time we have to put in. But if OP is talking about requirements of a pro player then desire and sacrifice is the answer I stick to.

King T · Dec 31, 2019

I think your right.., maybe?

Bob Jewett said:
Everyone can improve if they work on their games, but some people will improve faster than others with the same effort.

Playing OK can come from either lots of natural talent or a lot of work or a little of both.

Playing well requires some natural talent and a lot of work or vice versa.

Playing at the top level requires natural talent and hard work. Saying that natural talent is required does not insult the top players.

You need to give more lessons. There are lots of people who like pool and are willing to work on their games but are incapable of ever running a hundred balls even if they practice for the rest of their lives. You seem to be saying that everyone has the same hand-eye coordination. They don't.[/QUOTE

Hey Bob can you name the people that you would say "play well" but are not players that you you consider "top talent" not to insult anyone, but to give a point of reference?

strmanglr scott · Dec 31, 2019

Bob Jewett said:
That's a fantasy in my view. Determination alone can't get you there. "Overcoming all odds" is a nice movie script. Reality is something else.

I find it to be reality. If you don't have those things, you won't make it. You won't put in the time to learn, to practice, to become more.

A person can be great with no "natural talent", but no one is great without the drive. Many times people who are great are just labeled as being gifted. The gift was the hard work, time and determination they put in. Like I said, it's an easy scapegoat for those who aren't great. "I can't be great, I'm not gifted". BS.

Natural talent is more myth than reality imo. You're not gonna change my mind on that.

Success comes from a burning desire, a flame that doesn't go out, that can't be put out. When you have that, greatness will come, it's inevitable.

rexus31 · Dec 31, 2019

strmanglr scott said:
I find it to be reality. If you don't have those things, you won't make it. You won't put in the time to learn, to practice, to become more.

A person can be great with no "natural talent", but no one is great without the drive. Many times people who are great are just labeled as being gifted. The gift was the hard work, time and determination they put in. Like I said, it's an easy scapegoat for those who aren't great. "I can't be great, I'm not gifted". BS.

Natural talent is more myth than reality imo. You're not gonna change my mind on that.

Success comes from a burning desire, a flame that doesn't go out, that can't be put out. When you have that, greatness will come, it's inevitable.

You can have all the desire in the world but if you don't have a stroke and can't consistently hit the cue ball where you want to, you aren't going to get past an APA SL5. Some things cannot be learned. I am a prime example; different sport. I played baseball through college, a pitcher. My life was consumed with baseball and the desire to play professionally. I put in the hard work and was dedicated; trained harder, longer than my peers and studied the game relentlessly. Guess what? My fastball topped out at 85-86mph which was not in line with what a was deemed pro caliber by pro scouts. The desire, training and hard work did not fail me. The hard fact was my god given ability was not enough to reach my goal. The old adage "you can do anything you put your mind to" is BS. You have to have the core competencies to make it happen. It is a two way street as well. My desire and hard work got me farther than others I played with who were more talented but less driven. Both are required to reach the highest level of any profession.

Bob Jewett · Dec 31, 2019

King T said:
... Hey Bob can you name the people that you would say "play well" but are not players that you you consider "top talent" not to insult anyone, but to give a point of reference?

I'll give one example. I play well. I will never be at the top level even though I might beat a fairly good player from time to time.

Bob Jewett · Dec 31, 2019

strmanglr scott said:
... Success comes from a burning desire, a flame that doesn't go out, that can't be put out. When you have that, greatness will come, it's inevitable.

Ok. I consider that to be a natural characteristic of the individual. Most don't have that flame. And I think if a person doesn't have the natural physical and mental abilities to improve the flame goes out quickly.

mikemosconi · Dec 31, 2019

I think that we are forgetting one big factor here- there is just not enough money in tournament pool in the U.S. and no real TV money- so unless one tries to pursue a life of a gambler - there is no financial reward. So without the aspect of really providing a path to high financial success through playing pool - it almost needs to become a pure pursuit of passion for a young person to desire to be great at pool. National prime time TV sports at least offer the possibility of one making millions if they get to the top levels- golf, baseball, tennis, football, basketball, etc. At the very least- free college for four years. I think for any young person in the U.S. ( under age 18) to put in the hours and training needed to become better than A level at pool - passion for the game needs to be the biggest factor today.
I think that anyone with very good eyesight, reasonable coordination, basic logic skills, decent equipment, excellent instruction early on; can set their limits on this game as high as they desire, but passion for the game will ultimately determine how far they go. Based on their degree of desire rooted in that passion. Of course, at some point, time devoted to the game without the ability to make a living at it will have to take a back seat to actually going to work- for most people.

King T · Dec 31, 2019

Well...,

Bob Jewett said:
I'll give one example. I play well. I will never be at the top level even though I might beat a fairly good player from time to time.

Just looking for prospective to share with my buddy's. Would you say the a good player, having played in good competition would have a Fargo Rate of.., 600-650?

JazzyJeff87 · Dec 31, 2019

King T said:
Just looking for prospective to share with my buddy's. Would you say the a good player, having played in good competition would have a Fargo Rate of.., 600-650?

I’d say around 623, at least for the player referenced in bob’s post.

King T · Dec 31, 2019

So then what?

JazzyJeff87 said:
I’d say around 623, at least for the player referenced in bob’s post.

If 623 makes you a good player what is the next tier, lets say 630 - 680? Still below a top talent, but capable of betting top talent in a short race?

Sealegs50 · Dec 31, 2019

garczar said:
True. Natural talent helps shorten the learning curve but its nothing without hard work and dedication.

I don't agree that natural talent just shortens the learning curve. If hard work and dedication were enough, I would be a much better pkayer by now.

ChrisinNC said:
If there are other aspects you guys can think of to add to this list, please include.

Someone who wants to become the best should have a level of maturity and attitude that allows them to stay focused on winning and advancing their skills rather than relying on others to stroke their egos because they are fancy shot makers.

JazzyJeff87 · Dec 31, 2019

King T said:
If 623 makes you a good player what is the next tier, lets say 630 - 680? Still below a top talent, but capable of betting top talent in a short race?

I was just messing around a bit since I looked up Bob’s Fargorate. I don’t really know what the next “tier” would be. Like what people call a shortstop could be anywhere in the 600s maybe.

750+ is definitely pro caliber. 700 may be considered low pro caliber but is still an excellent pool player. The skill level field is huge.

If you watch a lot of pool you can go look up Fargorates of some of the amateur players on the railbirds YouTube page. They cover a lot of different stuff and you can watch levels of play compared to their Fargo and get a better idea of what someone at 670 is doing.

King T · Dec 31, 2019

Thanks!

JazzyJeff87 said:
I

If you watch a lot of pool you can go look up Fargorates of some of the amateur players on the railbirds YouTube page. They cover a lot of different stuff and you can watch levels of play compared to their Fargo and get a better idea of what someone at 670 is doing.

I watch a lot, but have never thought about looking up Fargo rates of the players. I'll check out Railbirds. Thanks!

PRED · Dec 31, 2019

Some are born with it, some never get it

9BallKY · Dec 31, 2019

rexus31 said:
You can have all the desire in the world but if you don't have a stroke and can't consistently hit the cue ball where you want to, you aren't going to get past an APA SL5. Some things cannot be learned. I am a prime example; different sport. I played baseball through college, a pitcher. My life was consumed with baseball and the desire to play professionally. I put in the hard work and was dedicated; trained harder, longer than my peers and studied the game relentlessly. Guess what? My fastball topped out at 85-86mph which was not in line with what a was deemed pro caliber by pro scouts. The desire, training and hard work did not fail me. The hard fact was my god given ability was not enough to reach my goal. The old adage "you can do anything you put your mind to" is BS. You have to have to core competencies to make it happen. It is a two way street as well. My desire and hard work got me farther than others I played with who were more talented but less driven. Both are required to reach the highest level of any profession.

This is so true. I know a guy who practices everything. PSR staying down and practices daily and can’t run 2 racks in a row on a bar table. He is in his 40s and has been playing for years.

Another example take Filler or Gorst, do you think they have played more or practiced more than say someone who has played 50 years? The answer is probably not even close but they have a natural talent plus hard work to get where they are at an early age.

Bob Jewett · Dec 31, 2019

9BallKY said:
This is so true. I know a guy who practices everything. PSR staying down and practices daily and can’t run 2 racks in a row on a bar table. He is in his 40s and has been playing for years.

Another example take Filler or Gorst, do you think they have played more or practiced more than say someone who has played 50 years? The answer is probably not even close but they have a natural talent plus hard work to get where they are at an early age.

As another example consider a player from Mosconi's era: Joe Batchelor. He ran 100 balls at 14.1 within the first six months of playing pool. Someone commented that he probably played 16 hours a day, but still.

PoolBum · Dec 31, 2019

Bob Jewett said:
As another example consider a player from Mosconi's era: Joe Batchelor. He ran 100 balls at 14.1 within the first six months of playing pool. Someone commented that he probably played 16 hours a day, but still.

16 hours a day? No wonder he never married.

asbani · Dec 31, 2019

ChrisinNC said:
This can apply to anyone at any age, but what do you feel are the most important aspects to create a great young player, and prioritize them in the order of importance. This is not my particular order, but just listed as they came to mind to me. If there are other aspects you guys can think of to add to this list, please include.

1) Natural talent/gift for Pool - varies for all of us.
2). Solid fundamentals - stance/alignment/stroke, that either come to them naturally or have been properly taught to them at a very early stage.
3) Motivation/desire/opportunity to practice and play as much as possible particularly for the first five years
4). Playing with as well as watching and learning from the best players they possibly can in their home pool room.
5). Playing in smaller tournaments and starting to play for $ (within their means) as soon as possible.
6) Observing top pro players perform as much as possible – either live in person or by viewing matches on YouTube, etc.
7) An extremely competitive and absolutely hate to lose instinct/attitude that drives them, that you are likely either born with or learn very quickly. Some have it and some just don’t. This is characterized by an inner drive to never give up in any match situation, regardless of the score or the strength of your opponent.
8) A player that continues to improve every year as opposed to stagnating/leveling off at a certain skill level. Even some players that are really good will level off and reach their max potential at a certain skill level and never get any better - that’s just the way it is.
9) A player that is willing to travel out of town/state to challenge himself against better and better competition, either gambling or tournaments, at the point that he no longer has competition in his own geographical comfort zone.

I'd like to comment to your points specifically one by one.

1) Not needed talent/gift is a scam, hoax, call it what you want, it doesn't exist.

2) Not needed, if you walk into people who tell you that you must stand in a specific way, or hold the cue in a specific way, like the snooker school, trust me these people don't know what they're talking about, you can see so many different types of strokes, different postures, different ways to stand, and they all work, all you need is to play a gazillion of billion strokes with the same shot, and you'll get be good with whatever stroke/stand/posture/bridge/fundamental that you've attained.

3) Needed, as a matter of fact, a must, if you want to be a top pro, practice 10hr to 12hr a day, if you do this and next year you're not at pro speed ill give you a million bucks.

4) This is the same as point (6) on this list, which is observing, and it is required.

5) Not needed, just do the point (3) on this list, then join major tournys.

6) Same as point (4) also required, watch pro's playing as much as you can.

7) Required, all of the greats hated to lose, they don't just hate it, they despise losing, this is what you need to become a world champion.

8) This will happen automatically if you do the point (3) on this list, play 12 hrs a day.

9) I don't know about that one, all you need is to practice, alot! travel has nothing to do with anything.

One thing you forgot to add, so I'll add a point (10) for you.

(10) Luck!, you absolutely need the luck to win tournaments, doesn't matter if you run out from anywhere, if your break doesn't work, and it works for your opponent, he'll beat you, so in the end, to win major tournys, even though you can play, you do need the rolls to be on your side to win it.

That's it, thank you.

9BallKY · Dec 31, 2019

Bob Jewett said:
As another example consider a player from Mosconi's era: Joe Batchelor. He ran 100 balls at 14.1 within the first six months of playing pool. Someone commented that he probably played 16 hours a day, but still.

A perfect example. It takes some natural ability and hard work to be top level player.

Fatboy · Jan 1, 2020

1. Talent (can’t train in what God left out)

2. What Miz said “Practice Practice Practice”

That’s all there is to it....

Fatboy

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