Proposal: Implement a "call fouls on yourself" rule in pool

BRussell · Nov 16, 2015

I saw another incident at a tournament this weekend where a player fouled, knew he fouled, but sat down without saying anything. He very thinly hit the wrong ball first while his body was in between the shot and the seated player. And he got away with it. Everyone on my side of the room was cringing as the shooter just walked away and sat down and his opponent got up to shoot the cue ball where it stopped. That's bad for pool.

This really ticks me off because it’s so clearly unsportsmanlike conduct at best, and I’d even call it cheating. The cover we use is that the seated opponent has the responsibility to pay attention. Yes, but nowhere in any rules I’ve seen does it say you don’t call fouls on yourself. That’s just the norm, at least for many pool players.

But I don’t think the problem is that pool players are particularly unethical or unsportsmanlike, I think the problem is that it’s not explicitly in the rules that you should call fouls on yourself. This encourages a "I can get away with it" attitude. The best way to change the norms and etiquette is to just put it in the rules. Then it will catch on.

Here is the first section under General Rules

1.1 Player’s Responsibility
It is the player's responsibility to be aware of all rules, regulations and schedules applying to competition. While tournament officials will make every reasonable effort to have such information readily available to all players as appropriate, the ultimate responsibility rests with the player.

To that I would add:

It is expected that players will call fouls on themselves, especially when no official is present or it is difficult for an opponent or official to determine if a foul has occurred. It is unsportsmanlike conduct to attempt to deceive an opponent or an official by intentionally failing to call a foul on oneself.

Or that might go under the Fouls section.

Here is the section on unsportsmanlike conduct:

6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct
The normal penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is the same as for a serious foul, but the referee may impose a penalty depending on his judgment of the conduct. Among other penalties possible are a warning; a standard-foul penalty, which will count as part of a three-foul sequence if applicable; a serious-foul penalty; loss of a rack, set or match; ejection from the competition possibly with forfeiture of all prizes, trophies and standings points.
Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly. It includes
(a) distracting the opponent;
(b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;
(c) playing a shot by intentionally miscuing;
(d) continuing to play after a foul has been called or play has been suspended;
(e) practicing during a match;
(f) marking the table;
(g) delay of the game; and
(h) using equipment inappropriately.

To that I would add
(i) intentionally failing to call a foul on oneself

Don Owen · Nov 16, 2015

Take a look at the rules for American Rotation. Americanbilliardclub.com

BRussell · Nov 16, 2015

Thanks Don, I didn't realize American Rotation had a call own fouls rule. But it doesn't surprise me.

Tin Man · Nov 16, 2015

calling fouls on yourself

There is a very fine line between a rule that can't be enforced and a suggestion. This only would make things tougher for those that follow the rules.

When it is 'opponent must call foul' we are all on even playing ground. What's the problem?

We all grew up differently. I grew up in a pool room where you didn't call foul on yourself, but if someone asked you'd absolutely admit it. That was considered to be having integrity. That's still how I play. I will never lie, but I don't feel it's my job to watch to see if the ball rubs the rail or not.

Tennesseejoe · Nov 16, 2015

But that is not part of the World Standardized Rules.

9Ballr · Nov 16, 2015

Only rule in pool that I would like to change is making it so that no one can put
their chalk on the rail while they're playing.

I know it sounds funny and weird but I have seen too many players who put
their chalks in a spot on the rail that they need to shoot at in order to get around
a ball or when they do combination shots and even for bank shots.

It's pointless to point it out to them because there is simply no rule against doing this.
It's annoying as hell and really you're hands are tied.

Best way to avoid the whole thing is to make a rule:
No chalk (or any other device) on the rail at any time during the entire game.

ctyhntr · Nov 16, 2015

Did you report this incident to a referee or the tournament director? Even if the TD can't act on it, he/she can keep an eye out for next time. I bet it wasn't the first time this player acted like this, and won't be the last.

BRussell said:
I saw another incident at a tournament this weekend where a player fouled, knew he fouled, but sat down without saying anything. He very thinly hit the wrong ball first while his body was in between the shot and the seated player. And he got away with it. Everyone on my side of the room was cringing as the shooter just walked away and sat down and his opponent got up to shoot the cue ball where it stopped. That's bad for pool.

This really ticks me off because it’s so clearly unsportsmanlike conduct at best, and I’d even call it cheating. The cover we use is that the seated opponent has the responsibility to pay attention. Yes, but nowhere in any rules I’ve seen does it say you don’t call fouls on yourself. That’s just the norm, at least for many pool players.

But I don’t think the problem is that pool players are particularly unethical or unsportsmanlike, I think the problem is that it’s not explicitly in the rules that you should call fouls on yourself. This encourages a "I can get away with it" attitude. The best way to change the norms and etiquette is to just put it in the rules. Then it will catch on.

Here is the first section under General Rules

To that I would add:

Or that might go under the Fouls section.

Here is the section on unsportsmanlike conduct:

To that I would add
(i) intentionally failing to call a foul on oneself

BRussell · Nov 16, 2015

Tin Man said:
There is a very fine line between a rule that can't be enforced and a suggestion. This only would make things tougher for those that follow the rules.

When it is 'opponent must call foul' we are all on even playing ground. What's the problem?

We all grew up differently. I grew up in a pool room where you didn't call foul on yourself, but if someone asked you'd absolutely admit it. That was considered to be having integrity. That's still how I play. I will never lie, but I don't feel it's my job to watch to see if the ball rubs the rail or not.

Yeah I know that lots of people see things the way you see them. Many people that I respect are exactly the same way, and I think they do otherwise have integrity, that's just the norm they learned.

The problem is that the norm is to try to get away with committing fouls that they know they committed but may have been difficult for an opponent to see. I believe that norm encourages an attitude of "getting away with it" which is contrary to sportsmanship. Putting an "own fouls" rule in could improve the sportsmanship of pool.

pdcue · Nov 16, 2015

9Ballr said:
Only rule in pool that I would like to change is making it so that no one can put
their chalk on the rail while they're playing.

I know it sounds funny and weird but I have seen too many players who put
their chalks in a spot on the rail that they need to shoot at in order to get around
a ball or when they do combination shots and even for bank shots.

It's pointless to point it out to them because there is simply no rule against doing this.
It's annoying as hell and really you're hands are tied.

Best way to avoid the whole thing is to make a rule:
No chalk (or any other device) on the rail at any time during the entire game.

Why not just move it yourself? After about the fifteenth time he might get the point.

Dale

BRussell · Nov 16, 2015

ctyhntr said:
Did you report this incident to a referee or the tournament director? Even if the TD can't act on it, he/she can keep an eye out for next time. I bet it wasn't the first time this player acted like this, and won't be the last.

I did not, and it's funny because the TD is a friend of mine and I talked to him after that incident about other things (there was no referee). I really should have but I guess it seems like tattling. I'll ask him what he thinks about it, but my guess is that he'd say that since there's no referee, no one else can call it or it would be outside interference.

pdcue · Nov 16, 2015

The problem is this is one of many situations that can, and will arise, where a referee is needed.

Without a ref, you are engaged in a competition similar to sand lot football, pick-up basketball, etc.

IMHO - expecting behavior identical to a refereed game is a bit unrealistic.

Dale(who often calls fouls on himself)

9Ballr · Nov 16, 2015

pdcue said:
Why not just move it yourself? After about the fifteenth time he might get the point.

Dale

Usually you're not allowed to interrupt a player that's at the table.
But there's no rule against leaving chalk in as many places as you want.

Wheels33 · Nov 16, 2015

9Ballr said:
Usually you're not allowed to interrupt a player that's at the table.
But there's no rule against leaving chalk in as many places as you want.

What rules do you play by? Any set of rules I know (WPA, BCA ) have unsportsmanlike conduct rules for 'marking the table'. Placing chalk in a place to mark a bank or a kick would definitely be considered marking the table. I'd ask them to move it if they did it repeatedly.

Yes, I agree trying to get away with fouls is bad for pool.....maybe things like Shane's example at the U.S. Open this year will change some attitudes.

9Ballr · Nov 16, 2015

Wheels33 said:
What rules do you play by?

Usually I play by BCA rules.
And there is no rule against people leaving their chalk on the rail.
If I point it out to people they act like they just left it there by accident.
The whole thing is done very inconspicuously.
Like oh, they're just standing there checking out their shot and now the chalk goes exactly where they need to shoot.
Frustrating as hell to have to point this out to people every shot so eventually I just stop.

david(tx) · Nov 16, 2015

BRussell said:
I saw another incident at a tournament this weekend where a player fouled, knew he fouled, but sat down without saying anything. He very thinly hit the wrong ball first while his body was in between the shot and the seated player. And he got away with it. Everyone on my side of the room was cringing as the shooter just walked away and sat down and his opponent got up to shoot the cue ball where it stopped. That's bad for pool.

This really ticks me off because it’s so clearly unsportsmanlike conduct at best, and I’d even call it cheating. The cover we use is that the seated opponent has the responsibility to pay attention. Yes, but nowhere in any rules I’ve seen does it say you don’t call fouls on yourself. That’s just the norm, at least for many pool players.

But I don’t think the problem is that pool players are particularly unethical or unsportsmanlike, I think the problem is that it’s not explicitly in the rules that you should call fouls on yourself. This encourages a "I can get away with it" attitude. The best way to change the norms and etiquette is to just put it in the rules. Then it will catch on.

Here is the first section under General Rules

To that I would add:

Or that might go under the Fouls section.

Here is the section on unsportsmanlike conduct:

To that I would add
(i) intentionally failing to call a foul on oneself

Not every tournament recognizes WPA rules . Some use rules of associations that are modified , some use house rules . You can't enforce integrity , if the offended player calls a foul the offending player can deny it and with out a referee it is one persons word against the other . What if people on the rail are in disagreement who will the TD believe .

Wheels33 · Nov 16, 2015

9Ballr said:
Usually I play by BCA rules.
And there is no rule against people leaving their chalk on the rail.
If I point it out to people they act like they just left it there by accident.
The whole thing is done very inconspicuously.
Like oh, they're just standing there checking out their shot and now the chalk goes exactly where they need to shoot.
Frustrating as hell to have to point this out to people every shot so eventually I just stop.

That wouldn't fly for one second in the league I'm in.

In the CSI BCAPL rules they talk specificly about it being a foul to place the cube of chalk to help mark a point for a bank or kick. It's a foul as soon as they place the chalk.
First time they did it, I'd warn them and let them know it's a foul.....second time, I'd call a foul.

ElCorazonFrio · Nov 16, 2015

9Ballr said:
Usually you're not allowed to interrupt a player that's at the table.
But there's no rule against leaving chalk in as many places as you want.

There most definitely is a rule about using chalk as an aiming point in the BCA rulebook.

3.43 ILLEGAL MARKING
If a player intentionally marks the table in any way (including the placement of chalk) to assist in executing the shot, it is a foul.

ElCorazonFrio · Nov 16, 2015

Anyone who doesn't call their own fouls isn't worth two seconds of my time. I don't need a rule to tell me so.

ElCorazonFrio · Nov 16, 2015

Wheels33 said:
That wouldn't fly for one second in the league I'm in.

In the CSI BCAPL rules they talk specificly about it being a foul to place the cube of chalk to help mark a point for a bank or kick. It's a foul as soon as they place the chalk.
First time they did it, I'd warn them and let them know it's a foul.....second time, I'd call a foul.

Yeah, it's been a rule for at least 20yrs...around the time that I memorized the BCA rules. The fact that people don't actually read the rules or understand them is the problem that arises.

For instance, I had a discussion about a BCA legal 8-ball rack with a guy who always put three solids in the corners...not that I really care, but someone else told him that it was wrong. He stated that he'd done it that way 'forever' and that his BCA league required it. I pulled up the BCA rules on my phone and he still told me I was wrong.

I have never spoken to him again...I have no time for irrational people.

AtLarge · Nov 17, 2015

Tin Man said:
... When it is 'opponent must call foul' we are all on even playing ground. What's the problem?

We all grew up differently. I grew up in a pool room where you didn't call foul on yourself, but if someone asked you'd absolutely admit it. That was considered to be having integrity. That's still how I play. I will never lie, but I don't feel it's my job to watch to see if the ball rubs the rail or not.

Sometimes only the player knows he fouled, even if the opponent's view was unobstructed and he was watching.

Proposal: Implement a "call fouls on yourself" rule in pool

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