The Physics of Pool

JazzyJeff87 said:

I could point all kinds of arrows to all kinds of shots showing you exactly where I aim to make the ball. The problem is I have no idea what I’m actually aiming at that spot. It’s just a spot I know to look at and focus on but I don’t know if I’m pointing my shaft at it, trying to put the center of the cue ball there or 2/3 the left edge or something crazy. I’ve seen good players try to help people by standing behind a shot and putting their finger on the rail saying “aim here” and it hardly ever works. I don’t know how it all works but when I’m playing really well it feels like magic, not sure if there’s any evidence to support my PFM theory though..

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I've gotta' disagree with that "it hardly ever works". Show me a spot on the rail the size of a 12point piece of type and I'll hit that sucker a hundred times straight, no problem.
The problem is hitting the correct spot on the object ball a hundred times straight.
I watched Billy Johnson starting out when he couldn't make a ball.
I watched Danny Jones starting out when he couldn't make a ball.
They had help along the way, showing them where to hit that object ball.
The stroke and all that stuff was a by-product of KNOWING where to hit that object ball and then doing that so many times they didn't have to think about it anymore. (it didn't take a million shots either)
Some players have goofy strokes that appear absurd....Bustamante and Allen Hopkins both come to mind. But they KNOW where to hit that object ball and how to get to that spot over and over and over.
My opinion and nothing more.....

lfigueroa said:

Well it certainly didn't take long for the "elitist disdain" I alluded to at the front of this thread to surface courtesy of the pocket protector set, lol.

So, like I said up front, I like the science and have wrestled my way through most of the major scientific works on pool. But I also know this: when I think of what has helped me learn to play pool and made me a better player it goes like this:

1. Time on the table practicing.
2. Gambling.
3. More time on the table after losing my lunch money.
4. Tournament play.
5. Lessons from great *players.*
And a far, far distant 6th would be science.

I sometimes wonder what Efren would say if you asked him his thoughts on Wayland's, "The Physics of Pocket Billiards. Or maybe Tony Chohan about Jack's, "The Science of Pocket Billiards." Maybe it would be good to know if Shane felt he was helped along by Ron's APAPP or how many Dr. Dave DVDs Earl has watched.

I will mention that the funny thing about lessons from great players (Dallas West, Ray Martin, and Steve "Cookie Monster" Cook) was that in the 20 hours or so I spent collectively with them not a one utter a

single

solitary

itty-bitty

word about the science.

Lou Figueroa
go figure

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This a hundred times.

I suspect if you ask the best bank pool players (perhaps the game that could be most influenced by the physics of pool) around about the physics, they wouldn’t have much to say. I’ve personally never known any high level players that spent much time focusing on the science. I have seen plenty of pool/snooker scientists get trapped in the rabbit hole.

nothing can compare with knowledge from expirience .
if i tell someone , play this breakshot with draw , and this kind of breakshots with follow .
than he knows the same as i know .
but my knowledge comes from 10000 breakshots and the observation of the results , and i remember the feel , the speed , the sound , everything of each shot .
the people today dont wanna think by themselfs , they think the instructor or the newest predator shaft makes them a better player .
if you wanna be a good pool player you have to practice over years , every day .
as lou said , playing for money , playing tournaments , play everything you can , and stay open minded of what you need to get better ,
practice the shots you dont like .
work hard on your weaknesses .
accu stats dvds are great .
there are some good instructional videos , from grady mathews , sigel , hall ,rempe an jimmy reid .
and all these things have nothing to do with science , except the diamond and clock systems , but every table and rail plays a little different .
science is ok in the first some weeks for the basics , footstand , angle of your arm ,
how to stroke in general .
but all the rest you have to find out by yourself .

by the way earl told me hes watching dr.daves dvds every day , because he barely wanna win the open once more .
lou , i wanna read your book one day .
keep in stroke everybody

By the way, I don’t want to sound like I’m bashing the science or the players that enjoy it. I really enjoy Dave’s videos, and the science is often very interesting. I just don’t believe it has much impact ion how good a player is or how quickly their development occurs.

For example, let’s say two people start practicing cut back banks into the corner pocket. One of them has no idea about spin from the rail, cut induced spin, object ball throw from spin, cushion compression with speed, etc. The other knows all about it. They both still have to choose somewhere to aim for their first attempt. They both still have to adjust and play the shot over and over again until they become familiar with the angle. The science is going to make very little difference while learning the shot, and make very little difference to their ability to play the shot in the future.

I learned how to manipulate touching ball plants about 10 years before I had any idea why hitting one side of the plant produced the opposite of the expected result. It made zero difference to my ability to play the shot when I discovered why it happens.

Shuddy said:

By the way, I don’t want to sound like I’m bashing the science or the players that enjoy it. I really enjoy Dave’s videos, and the science is often very interesting. I just don’t believe it has much impact ion how good a player is or how quickly their development occurs.

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I think you mean it hasn’t had much impact on your progress.

pj
chgo

4pointer said:

nothing can compare with knowledge from expirience .
if i tell someone , play this breakshot with draw , and this kind of breakshots with follow .
than he knows the same as i know .
but my knowledge comes from 10000 breakshots and the observation of the results , and i remember the feel , the speed , the sound , everything of each shot .
the people today dont wanna think by themselfs , they think the instructor or the newest predator shaft makes them a better player .
if you wanna be a good pool player you have to practice over years , every day .
as lou said , playing for money , playing tournaments , play everything you can , and stay open minded of what you need to get better ,
practice the shots you dont like .
work hard on your weaknesses .
accu stats dvds are great .
there are some good instructional videos , from grady mathews , sigel , hall ,rempe an jimmy reid .
and all these things have nothing to do with science , except the diamond and clock systems , but every table and rail plays a little different .
science is ok in the first some weeks for the basics , footstand , angle of your arm ,
how to stroke in general .
but all the rest you have to find out by yourself .

by the way earl told me hes watching dr.daves dvds every day , because he barely wanna win the open once more .
lou , i wanna read your book one day .
keep in stroke everybody

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hey 4p, I agree with you that to be a great player, you need to put in the hard yards and that no cue can do that for you.
that said, science is knowledge based on facts learned by experimentation and observation.
sounds familiar to me..
it just seems like we're all talking about the same stuff, more or less
whatever you wanna call it..
keep in stroke!

One does not to have a in depth knowledge of physics to play high level pool.

It does help to have a basic understanding of a few principles though. Like a object tends to stay in motion unless another force stops it or it runs out of gas....so to speak.

It helps to understand CB spin and how the angle of the spin on the CB effects how the CB comes off another ball or rail.

It helps to understand that as the cut angle between CB and OB increases, less energy is transferred.

But knowing formulas and such....not needed.

Patrick Johnson said:

I think you mean it hasn’t had much impact on your progress.

pj
chgo

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You aren’t taking him literally are you?

Maybe he really meant something else........remember looking at the object ball and the shit you gave me for taking the statement literally.

Selectivness in taking things literally is a disease of a weak mind.

My favorite crossover bank

lfigueroa said:

Yes, thanks, Shuddy.

I also think there's a sidecar to this whole thing about the science, which is that because we see things differently, our bodies are different, and our mechanics are different it often times happens that we develop a theory that actually goes contrary to the science -- but it consistently works for us.

Many years ago Freddy the Beard insisted that a particular grip would produce a particular action on the CB. And of course that was absurd as far as the science is concerned. *But it worked for him.* When he used that grip he got that action. In hindsight, my disagreement with him shouldn't have been whether it worked (for him) but rather his insistent that it worked for everyone.

Not too long ago John Brumback was here insisting that you could curve bank shots to make the pocket effectively larger. Of course the scientists pounced (and he has not been heard from here since). I'm not going to say that he was right in thinking the balls were curving. But who on God's blue Simonis covered Earth is going deny that he is one of the greatest bank pool players of all time and if believing the balls were curving helped him play at the level he plays at, I say more power to him. That is his personal reality. His personal science.

Lou Figueroa

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When the object ball is near the end rail, maybe four inches or less, and the cue ball is almost back along the path to the pocket I overcut the ball every time, firing with speed. The angle should hit the side rail. Instead the object ball and induced spin finds some bite and it whips into the corner pocket. One of my favorite shots since the cue ball naturally clears the path of the object ball. That same induced spin helps the ball run down the rail if it needs to.

I suspect a man with John's banking skills and experience can make the ball curve other places. One thing for sure, I'm never ever going to tell him he is wrong! One thing I learned long ago about the old men. They aren't always right about why something happens but when they tell you how something will happen take it to the bank!(sorry, couldn't resist!)

Hu

duckie said:

One does not to have a in depth knowledge of physics to play high level pool.

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I am sure everybody, even the "Science Guys," can agree with this 100%.

duckie said:

But knowing formulas and such....not needed.

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I am sure everybody, even the "Science Guys," can agree with this 100%.

duckie said:

It does help to have a basic understanding of a few principles though. Like a object tends to stay in motion unless another force stops it or it runs out of gas....so to speak.

It helps to understand CB spin and how the angle of the spin on the CB effects how the CB comes off another ball or rail.

It helps to understand that as the cut angle between CB and OB increases, less energy is transferred.

Click to expand...

Exactly!

All good pool players have a very good understanding of many "pool physics effects" (not equations, but real effects at the table):
- how stun makes the CB head perpendicular to OB motion in the tangent line direction.
- how a rolling CB heads in the natural angle direction over a wide range of cut angles.
- how backspin makes the CB come back and topspin makes it go forward.
- how backspin wears off and converts to stun and then topspin, especially with more distance and less speed.
- how sidespin changes the rebound angle off cushions.
- how to adjust aim to compensate for CB deflection and throw.
- how a drag shot intensifies sidespin.
- how gearing outside english can eliminate throw.
- how throw affects frozen or small-gap combination shots hit from different angles.
- how cut-induced spin affects bank shots.
- how to use cue elevation to make the CB curve.
- how hitting down on the CB can make it jump.
- how hitting rail cut shots ball-first vs. cushion-first with sidespin totally changes the action of the shot.

etc!!!

I could probably easily list 1000 "pool physics effects" that every good pool player must understand to play well. In fact, many are already listed here:

Top 100 Tips, Tricks, Secrets, and Gems

bank and kick shot effects

squirt, swerve, and throw effects

You can learn this stuff through countless years of trial and error, but some people can learn it faster by getting instruction and by reading and watching high-quality instructional materials. But to execute shots accurately and consistently, one must practice, and some people practice smarter and improve faster than others. Having good and consistent fundamentals and mechanics can also help speed this process. This foundation can also be developed through countless years of trial and error, but learning and understanding can also help speed the process.

Again, all good pool players are masters of "pool physics effects." They have also put in enough table time to be able to apply their understanding and execute shots with confidence and consistency.

Regards,
Dave

science is knowledge based on experimentation and observation .
well said evergruven , i like it .
in this case you are the scientist .

Patrick Johnson said:

I think you mean it hasn’t had much impact on your progress.

pj
chgo

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I know how to use pronouns.

Man, you did this in the top 10 Pool myths thread; cherry picked a single line from my post, and criticized it in the most minimal, terse way possible.

But actually, no, I mean in my opinion, knowing the physics (and I’m not talking about observational knowledge based on experience as Dave listed, I’m talking about the detailed physics) has very little impact on a players progress as compared to practical experience. I’m pretty sure I illustrated my opinion quite clearly with the example I gave. Knowing all the physics in the world about a particular shot will have no impact on how quickly a player learns the shot.

I’d love to see a little video experiment. Get two people that have very little cuesports experience. Put one of them in a room and tell them all about the physics of playing a back cut cross corner bank. Then put them both on a table and time how quickly it takes them to be able to play the shot 5 out of 10 times.

And if you want to know what I really mean: Every snooker scientist I’ve ever met has been a mess. No top player talks about the physics or used it to improve. No one talks about BHE and FHE or whatever it is. No snooker commentator talks about it. No pro obsesses over it. No top player chooses their bridge length based on the deflection of their shaft and then adjusts the ratios of their BHE and FHE accordingly. The best technical cueists in the world use a piece of ash as their cue; no carbon cores, radial splices, adjustable weights, variable deflection, etc.

Am I saying all those are bad? No. Am I saying this won’t benefit anyone? No. Did Mosconi have access to any of that? No. Lindrum? No. Davis? Hendry? No. You think all the Filipino teenagers that would roast both of us sit around talking about this stuff? I doubt it.

The majority of the world’s best players become the best player’s without intimate knowledge of the physics. But feel free to play all your draw shots with a 60 degree cue elevation because elevation has no impact on how low you can hit the cueball, and how close you can get your cue tip to the cloth has no impact either.

thanks lou ,
i like the way you write and think about the beautiful game of pool .
50 years of expirience cant be beaten .

to all the bigtime poolplayers here on az :

listen to mr . figueroa , you can learn something .

if you have something to say about pool , say it .
if not , dont post something disrespectful , and dont make funny or sarcastic comments .

have a nice weekend and keep in stroke everybody...

4pointer said:

if you have something to say about pool , say it .
if not , dont post something disrespectful , and dont make funny or sarcastic comments .

have a nice weekend and keep in stroke everybody...

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Awwww, man. Now I feel like an asshole.

Love and peace.

Shuddy said:

...in my opinion, knowing the physics (and I’m not talking about observational knowledge based on experience as Dave listed, I’m talking about the detailed physics) has very little impact on a players progress as compared to practical experience.

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Of course (and again, who has ever said otherwise?). It's when this idea is taken too far ("the best players don't know any science, so it can't really help") that it sparks disagreement.

pj
chgo

Shuddy said:

Awwww, man. Now I feel like an asshole.

Love and peace.

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didnt mean you , shuddy .

OP, I appreciate your post.

I also like visiting Dr. Dave's site. It's interesting observing some of the experiments/measurements in a way not possible with the naked eye alone.

There is so much to learn about so many topics, so it's easy to go down the rabbit hole if interested enough.

I believe immersing yourself in the game any way you find interesting will keep you coming back and return positive effects -- BUT it should be most important to actually play the game. The repetition of motor function will begin to make your shots increasingly easier. This is the same with most actions in life (walking, speaking, etc.)

Breaking actions down into the smallest of increments via physics and science is a great way to understand the game, but it doesn't mean you can actually do it. The brain is unfortunately the most important puzzle piece. It is, of course, much more complex than the science of this game. We will never ever learn everything about the game, which is beautiful IMO. I believe getting good sleep is another thing that can keep learning and performance moving in a positive direction. It's incredible how bad we function as beings when running low on sleep.

Side note: I put in my thousand hours and have hopefully many more to go, but recently I have been in a rut. I'm trying to remind myself why I play pool in the first place -- for fun!

Have a great weekend everyone.

finkster07 said:

...it should be most important to actually play the game.

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Of course this is true - so obviously true, in fact, that I wonder why people think it's necessary to say it, as if anybody needs convincing. I've never met any player of any caliber that thought so much about anything that it hindered their development.

You see lots of technical conversation here because this is a forum for conversation - we're not in the middle of a match.

pj
chgo