Sadly, I have to agree with pretty much this entire post. It has been a bitter lesson.
Draw for show, follow for the dough?
- Thread starter Straightpool_99
- Start date
One thing I didn't mention was cueball "arcing". When the ball is struck hard with follow, it first follows the tangent line, then bends forward. What if a rail interrupts the ball before the arc is completed?
that would make a GREAT bumper sticker!
Great post, very informative Bob. I know for my money if I have to break out a cluster I going for a stun shot, its really the only time the cue ball will arrive exactly where we want it to every time. Its also very easy to see the tangent. One thing that I think makes draw just a little more complicated than follow is that cue elevation affects your draw shots, raise the rear of the cue and the cue ball starts pulling backwards off of the tangent line much quicker than with an almost level cue. When you guys discuss using draw or follow are you actually talking about that cue ball spinning backwards when it arrives at the object ball or are we including stun shots (my favorite over follow and draw) and shots where you just cue towards the bottom of the cue ball with spin but dont actually have a backwards spinning cue ball when it arrives at the object ball?
I have always preferred draw shots, but 100% agree that isn't always the correct solution, and I am working hard to stop relying on them as much. I now try to look at the available landing area for my next shot and base my follow/draw on which one brings me into this area 1.) parallel to it to increase the margin of error and 2.) limits the distance the cue ball moves. So far having these 2 criteria has really eased my mind when deciding.
I think a draw shot is only when the cue ball is spinning backwards when it arrives at the object ball. Most stun shots need to be played somewhat below center to arrive with nothing.
Food for thought, I don't think there is a pro alive that is going to shoot the 9 ball to win the game with follow, unless they are frozen on a rail.
That says a lot.
That says a lot.
There's your problem right there.
Depends on what pockets they need to avoid.
That's not true at all.
I don’t consider just cueing low as draw.
Cueing bellow center Does not always result in draw.
People conflate the two.
Or stated more completely....
If the cue ball has backspin when it arrives at the object ball, it will come off initially along the tangent line and then bend back from the tangent line. The amount of deviation back from the tangent line depends on the cut angle and the quality (spin vs. speed) of the draw. That is, if the cue has only a little back spin for its speed and the cut is thin, it will only pull a little back from the tangent.
For a half-ball cut, lively draw will result in the cue ball traveling nearly perpendicular to its original path. A fuller than half-ball hit with lively draw will result in a cue ball path that is somewhat back towards the shooter.
If you watch a lot of pro matches, you will very rarely see them set up for a straight back draw for position -- but they do choose that option occasionally, usually when there was no other option available due to interfering balls. That should tell you something right there.
When the object ball is near the rail, drawing off one rail for position happens all of the time, because the cue ball is much more predictable for those shots.
When the object ball is near the rail, drawing off one rail for position happens all of the time, because the cue ball is much more predictable for those shots.
When I was a kid, I could put ‘whitey on a string’....often I would draw the length of the
table from a distance....because I could.
After about four years I started to look at the game differently....
...I stopped pandering to what I FELT like doing...started to ignore my will, likes and dislikes,
my fears.....and tried to see what was the best way to play a shot.
As CJ might say, I tried to let the game be my teacher....I improved immensely.
It doesn’t mean I stopped drawing....if I’m shooting a game ball, so position is not
important, I’d rather hit it with draw at more than a medium speed....
....this eliminates a lot of kicks.
table from a distance....because I could.
After about four years I started to look at the game differently....
...I stopped pandering to what I FELT like doing...started to ignore my will, likes and dislikes,
my fears.....and tried to see what was the best way to play a shot.
As CJ might say, I tried to let the game be my teacher....I improved immensely.
It doesn’t mean I stopped drawing....if I’m shooting a game ball, so position is not
important, I’d rather hit it with draw at more than a medium speed....
....this eliminates a lot of kicks.
Thanks, Bob. I didn't have a lot of time to elaborate. Any amount of back spin that pulls the ball from the tangent line is certainly considered draw.
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Draw is when the cueball arrives at the object ball with any amount of backspin that will pull it off the tangent line. The OP and all who posted were not talking about a below center hit to arrive with stun or a soft low hit to roll through, we were discussing actual draw shots. You stated that a draw shot can only be accomplished within a very small window of cut angle, you can achieve actual draw at any cut angle with a true hit.
rocketceo
<<< rocketceo >>>
Sorry, but of your 5 comments, only #4 is correct, 3&5 are highly debatable, and 1&2 are just plain wrong. You also leave out some critical points which are much more important (my additions 6-13).
Re #1, draw does NOT minimize cut-induced throw, as compared with follow. Draw and follow of the same amount throw virtually the same, while a cue ball (CB) hitting an object ball (OB) with stun throws significantly more. This is actually the "best" case (for close OBs), as when OBs are further away the backspin of draw shots wears off from friction, and arrives at the OB with less spin (therefore closer to a stun shot), and thus many draw shots throw MORE than follow shots. Throw is also LARGER for slower speed shots, and as draw slows the ball more than follow, this is a second reason throw from draw shots tends to be larger.
Re #2 (and other comments following), there are a zillion different layouts, and no one clear rule applies to all situations, but generally I much prefer not to "cut off the table." I generally want the ball going to a rail, where I can use English to fine tune my position. Draw does NOT always minimize CB travel, only sometimes, for fuller hits. Watch most top players, and when they have to leave a CB near a rail for position, they will most always not stop short of the rail, but go into the rail and bounce out to the same place. Why? Using the rail is just more predictable, speed-wise.
And yes, others than God knows what happens when a ball hits a rail; the rebound angle off a rail is actually FAR more predictable than the angle a CB leaves an OB when hit with draw (an angle which greatly varies with speed, cloth, spin, dirt, humidity and other factors, and takes a lot of experience to truly understand).
Re #5, force follow shots are an indispensable part of the game, and sometimes they are really the only option. Just because we can draw the ball a table length plus does NOT mean it is the best option, or preferable to follow. I'm merely a decent player---nothing special---and I can force follow 3 or 4 cushions around the table and generally put the CB within 6-8" of where I want. No way could I say the same for draw!!! Here's why, a few more numbered items you didn't mention.
6. Draw ANGLE is much MUCH harder to predict than the follow angle. As many know, the draw return angle is perhaps triple the angle into the OB, but not so with follow, and any even good intermediate player instinctively knows where the cue ball is going with follow.
7. Draw SPEED is much MUCH harder to predict. We can all follow a CB 6 diamonds straight down the rail, and stop within 2-3 inches of where we want, but try and draw 6 diamonds, and we're happy to stop within a diamond of where we want! Because the backspin is being eroded by the cloth every inch of the way, one must hit the CB quite a bit harder usually to move whitey. With the CB and OB at opposite ends of the table, an 8' power draw requires some serious speed, while one can bring the CB back to this end of the table using follow and only medium speed (with a decent stroke).
8. The combination of 6 and 7 make position TERRIBLY harder with draw. I tell my students that with ball in hand, I will choose to draw the ball perhaps only 1 in every 30 shots or so, basically only where there just is no follow option.
9. Because it's clear we must hit draw shots harder to get the same action as follow, the OB is necessarily going faster, which makes the pocket smaller on most shots. NOT desirable at all, especially when running a ball down the rail on a tight table.
10. Let's consider mechanical execution also. Because you're hitting a draw shot harder, there is a greater chance of simple physical stroke error. Aren't most all of us mere mortals less accurate the harder we hit?! Simply put, I generally use the slowest speed I can use to get my position.
11. Here's a subtle one. To get the same amount of follow or draw action, because of table friction you must hit the CB further from the center of the ball for draw than you must for follow. The further from the center of the CB you are (on the vertical axis), the greater the eccentricity of the ball (the lateral curvature). With greater eccentricity, that means any execution error in hitting the CB where we want is increasingly and seriously magnified (which is primarily why we're less accurate when the CB is frozen to a rail). Therefore, to draw with the same action as follow, we must hit the CB in a place where any stroke error is really magnified, making us less accurate. (Do not underestimate this point; it is a serious factor!)
12. Another subtle one. It is well known that with an elevated cue even the slightest hit deviation from the vertical axis causes swerve. With follow shots, the cue can be close to level, but with most draw shots---because of the rail---the cue must have a steeper downward angle, which increases the chance for swerve, and again makes us less accurate.
13. A final subtlety. ANYtime one hits an OB at an angle with any speed, using high or low (not left or right) the CB bends. Every single time, and interestingly, most all players never even see the bend, or understand this principle technically. A good player understands the ball is bending with draw and follow, and will assess that in playing position. Once again, the amount of CB bend (swerve) is MUCH easier to predict with follow, making your position easier and more accurate.
I respect your opinion, and the infinite array of individual playing styles. Draw may work wonderfully for you, especially if you choose it most times, and then get more practiced at it, but that bias and the extra repetitions you have with draw absolutely does NOT make it the right choice. Watch Mosconi play straight pool---90+% follow shots. Watch Ronnie play snooker---80+% follow shots. The old saying is as true as can be, "Draw for show..."
This concept of "draw for show" may be why you think Parica draws most times, as we take no notice of routine NATURAL follow shots, but with nice draw shots we mentally go "ooh!". I don't think Parica, or any pro, draws more than they follow; it just might "seem" that way, because the draw shots are more noticeable. It's the same, for example, with good or bad rolls, which MUST occur 50-50 almost by definition, but we never notice the good rolls, and the bad rolls drive us nuts, so we think there are a lot more of them (why is exactly why we commonly think our opponents are "luckier" than we are). In a half century of watching pool and top players, I have never seen any pro in ANY billiard discipline (including the Filipinos who love to draw: Efren, Francisco, Jose, Alex, Dennis, etc.) who draw more than they follow. That will just never happen, for all the disadvantages I've mentioned.
With decades of 3-cushion play in addition to pool, I can categorically tell you that draw shots are played in 3-C at most maybe 1 out of 15 shots. Why are the other 14 played with follow? Simple, 3-C emphasizes where the CB goes, and the CB path is much much MUCH easier to predict with follow. Making the flashy draw shot gives you a nice feeling inside, and a satisfying "good shot" from your friends, but far too often you don't get the position you need ... it's really that simple.
3C is the antithesis of taking the best, most natural path from Point A to Point B. The whole idea of the game is the direct path is too boring and made interesting only by extreme and artificial requirements. It surprises me that draw is meaningful in 1 of 15.
I would call it finding the most natural path that includes three cushions. A large part of the game is finding where the cue ball "wants" to go.