DTL...Just FYI, Stuart Pettiman has lived in Phoenix for several years...and yes, he can play. :grin:
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Weight distribution
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Not sure we're talking about the same guy. Think Stuart Pettman lives in Thailand.
Are you talking about Bernie Pettipiece? I think he's English.....plays good 1-hole.
I'm a firm believer that all serious pool players should study snooker fundamentals and then adjust accordingly. How I play and teach comes from my studies of both snooker and pool fundamentals.
And by the way, there isn't just one set of snooker fundamentals. There are different opinions among snooker players. It's not as diverse as we have with pool but still there are different methodologies out there. Pool players who decide to study snooker fundamentals should be aware of that because many of them don't know that there are different opinions out there. I recommend the snooker players who teach leaning back as opposed to leaning forward. They're out there. Look for them.
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Table Size, Space and Other Considerations
There are reasons that stances differ from game to game. Most of them evolved from table size and available room. Snooker players usually play with an arm on the table whenever possible. On a 6x12 table there is room to do that. Break an 8 ball rack on a bar box and there aren’t too many places to lay the arm. But, what was the function of the arm on the table? Ronnie O’Sullivan and Jimmy White talked about 3 important principles needed by players. First was stepping ahead into the shot. Next was straight cueing and lastly staying down. The last one is where this narrative is going, staying down. Thinking about it in reverse gives more insight. How do you get up, to start with? Consider an experiment. Stand facing square to a wall with both arms outstretched, fingernails just touching the surface. Now try to push away from the wall. Since the arms are fully extended there is no available space to extend into in order to push. The point is we are pushing away from the table in order to get up, but fully extended we can’t. Joe Davis, the original snooker great, told us he fully extended his left bridge arm onto the table. Beyond that he said his weight balance was forwards into the shot. He described the arm as anchored. He also called it a immobilized position. He couldn’t get up if he wanted to, when he was about to shoot. The third principle of the British duo is met if the position at the table allows for an anchored position. The thing about principles is that they are true across all contexts. Despite different games and table sizes, the anchoring and immobilization in the stance is the objective. The idea that putting the body in a position that it can’t get up from without shifting things around was the main insight. That means the player essentially stays down because there is no other choice.
I do that in limited space by positioning the bridge, then in most cases dropping my bridge arm shoulder joint as low as possible. Additionally, I shift weight forward and down. I essentially drop anchor. In order to get up, other parts need to move first. I feel fully extended at my shoulder joint. Joe was short and even he had trouble having a fully extended arm using a sideways stance. He often held the cue, at address, ahead of vertical, due to running out of cue. Being near 6 foot, a sideways stance, forced me to bend my arm while still extending fully at the shoulder joint. I now stand square to the shot forcing me to reach across my body, rather than along it, solving the cue length issue. The bridge arm can bend and adjust to various positions more easily. The shoulder joint can’t have room to shove or I can push myself up. The arm can snake through the balls to a hand position but the shoulder needs full extension to complete the anchor. Dropping it fully accomplishes that and provides a good place to shift weight, anchoring.
The remaining variable is the available room for creating a cueing angle. In many cases the rear hand must be raised to avoid the grip colliding with the rail during the shot or to play over obstacles. Rail clearance often creates a downwards plane. Weight shifted backwards may anchor but has issues with a forward, downward sloped cueing plane. Context determines options and shifts priorities when deciding how to play a shot. In simple terms, the situation dictates what to do. Search for principles first, they should be there on every shot. Eliminating unwanted movement is one such concept. Since a pool table can be 3-4" lower than a snooker table, taller players often bend or splay their legs to get to a stable lower position.
One element favoring a more upright stance on smaller tables is the increased number of shots where the cue ball is very close to the object ball. An overhead 3-D view of the balls and where they will contact one another based on the cueing angle, can be beneficial, unless the pocket is lost. Also, on longer shots the two balls, if viewed from above, will no longer both be in the same field of vision. When that happens, a lower visual perspective creates an angle bringing the balls and pocket into a single visual field. Think about how having the pocket out of view on some cutback shots impacts player perception.
Back to the question of weight distribution. The problem is that every answer here has an element of truth. Each perspective comes with its own set of criteria for evaluation when making decisions at the table. Every option is correct for a given perspective. With weight distribution we are not looking at a principle, since it can’t be applied in all situations. It is a chosen adaptation in specific situations. Generalizing it into other contexts fails. The focus of the shooter needs to be elsewhere. The 3 elements pointed out by Ronnie and Jimmy seem a better place to pay attention.
There are reasons that stances differ from game to game. Most of them evolved from table size and available room. Snooker players usually play with an arm on the table whenever possible. On a 6x12 table there is room to do that. Break an 8 ball rack on a bar box and there aren’t too many places to lay the arm. But, what was the function of the arm on the table? Ronnie O’Sullivan and Jimmy White talked about 3 important principles needed by players. First was stepping ahead into the shot. Next was straight cueing and lastly staying down. The last one is where this narrative is going, staying down. Thinking about it in reverse gives more insight. How do you get up, to start with? Consider an experiment. Stand facing square to a wall with both arms outstretched, fingernails just touching the surface. Now try to push away from the wall. Since the arms are fully extended there is no available space to extend into in order to push. The point is we are pushing away from the table in order to get up, but fully extended we can’t. Joe Davis, the original snooker great, told us he fully extended his left bridge arm onto the table. Beyond that he said his weight balance was forwards into the shot. He described the arm as anchored. He also called it a immobilized position. He couldn’t get up if he wanted to, when he was about to shoot. The third principle of the British duo is met if the position at the table allows for an anchored position. The thing about principles is that they are true across all contexts. Despite different games and table sizes, the anchoring and immobilization in the stance is the objective. The idea that putting the body in a position that it can’t get up from without shifting things around was the main insight. That means the player essentially stays down because there is no other choice.
I do that in limited space by positioning the bridge, then in most cases dropping my bridge arm shoulder joint as low as possible. Additionally, I shift weight forward and down. I essentially drop anchor. In order to get up, other parts need to move first. I feel fully extended at my shoulder joint. Joe was short and even he had trouble having a fully extended arm using a sideways stance. He often held the cue, at address, ahead of vertical, due to running out of cue. Being near 6 foot, a sideways stance, forced me to bend my arm while still extending fully at the shoulder joint. I now stand square to the shot forcing me to reach across my body, rather than along it, solving the cue length issue. The bridge arm can bend and adjust to various positions more easily. The shoulder joint can’t have room to shove or I can push myself up. The arm can snake through the balls to a hand position but the shoulder needs full extension to complete the anchor. Dropping it fully accomplishes that and provides a good place to shift weight, anchoring.
The remaining variable is the available room for creating a cueing angle. In many cases the rear hand must be raised to avoid the grip colliding with the rail during the shot or to play over obstacles. Rail clearance often creates a downwards plane. Weight shifted backwards may anchor but has issues with a forward, downward sloped cueing plane. Context determines options and shifts priorities when deciding how to play a shot. In simple terms, the situation dictates what to do. Search for principles first, they should be there on every shot. Eliminating unwanted movement is one such concept. Since a pool table can be 3-4" lower than a snooker table, taller players often bend or splay their legs to get to a stable lower position.
One element favoring a more upright stance on smaller tables is the increased number of shots where the cue ball is very close to the object ball. An overhead 3-D view of the balls and where they will contact one another based on the cueing angle, can be beneficial, unless the pocket is lost. Also, on longer shots the two balls, if viewed from above, will no longer both be in the same field of vision. When that happens, a lower visual perspective creates an angle bringing the balls and pocket into a single visual field. Think about how having the pocket out of view on some cutback shots impacts player perception.
Back to the question of weight distribution. The problem is that every answer here has an element of truth. Each perspective comes with its own set of criteria for evaluation when making decisions at the table. Every option is correct for a given perspective. With weight distribution we are not looking at a principle, since it can’t be applied in all situations. It is a chosen adaptation in specific situations. Generalizing it into other contexts fails. The focus of the shooter needs to be elsewhere. The 3 elements pointed out by Ronnie and Jimmy seem a better place to pay attention.
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Wow DTL! Brain fart! 
LOL Yes, it's Bernie I'm talking about! Don't know the other person, but from your description he simply ran out!
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
LOL Yes, it's Bernie I'm talking about! Don't know the other person, but from your description he simply ran out!Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Repeating: We don't always need forward thrust. Some pool (snooker) players are great shots while being immobile with all but the stroke arm. Others do well moving a little on the shot, usually with the cue stick, straight ahead and down, therefore the arm on the table concept.
In Bold. A good friend of mine and a great player said "I sit down on the stance, it's like sticking your butt out".
Worked for him and it works for me.
Nice post Fran.
John
lol. CJ Wiley spent over an hour trying to teach me to "stick my butt out". He finally gave up and allowed me a modified way to step into the shot to get me online.
If your right handed and get down into the shooting position you just rock back on your right leg. It's a pretty relaxed shooting stance. Takes your whole body out of the shot. No tension.
John
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks John I will give that a try. I had to step forward a little more than to the left as I dropped down to get over the ball and my right hip, or even chest, sometimes interferes a little on a shot with a long stroke like a really long draw..
Pretty amazing. I just tried it. Of course it is something new so it feels a little strange but I think I LIKE it. Not only does it move my hip out of the way it drops me back and down on the cue ball, enabling me to see further down the table without moving my head. I am not certain about the weight distribution but I seem to be able to control that without having to shift back forward.
I am surprised no one has suggested that before. Whether I keep it or not, thank you for the suggestion. So far it looks promising.:thumbup:
Good. That's what is called sticking your butt out.
I'm surprised CJ didn't suggest this idea.
I use it. Takes tension out of the body.
What you will notice is the only thing you are going to feel is your shooting arm moving.
John
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
CJ kept trying to get me to lead with sticking my butt out as that is how he does it. It was totally awkward for me. After a full hour I questioned that we were getting anywhere. I was exhausted and really frustrated.
I get that stepping into the shot correctly is his most important thing but I simply could not do it the way he does.
Rocking back seems to really help me but I will have to see about my balance. I guess I have always played very weight forward with a lot of weight on my bridge hand. This is more balanced but also very unfamiliar. Maybe I will need to shoot more than the two balls I have hit so far. :wink: Just got home, rushed out to the pool room hit two long shots and came back in the house for dinner. I plan to check it out for a few hours yet tonight.
That's cool Skip.
Take your time. Your just not familiar with taking your body out of the shot.
Be careful with putting too much weight on your bridge arm. You will end up with rotator cuff injury in your bridge arm.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Very true, John. A player once came to me for help because he couldn't play more than 15 minutes without experiencing excruciating pain in his bridge arm shoulder. He said it started out as a dull ache and then progressed to a chronic problem over the course of several months. I saw right away that his stance was off and he was putting too much weight on his bridge arm.
I adjusted his feet and had him lean the bottom half back. He immediately started to feel better, and over time, his shoulder healed and he was able to play for hours at a time again. Luckily, we caught it before he damaged his rotator cuff.
In Bold above. After you have aligned your body with the shot line and are ready to get down into the shooting position, while standing just take a normal (and this is personal) step forward with your left leg. This is called your personal Gait and will put your body into a balanced position when bending over.
If you want to learn more about the human gait visit youtube. Lot of good info out there.
John
Thanks Mike
In Bold above. After you have aligned your body with the shot line and are ready to get down into the shooting position, while standing just take a normal (and this is personal) step forward with your left leg. This is called your personal Gait and will put your body into a balanced position when bending over.
If you want to learn more about the human gait visit youtube. Lot of good info out there.
John
Thanks Mike
Right, but the key is in how far forward to plant that front foot. Too far and you defeat the purpose of the stance. Not far enough and it becomes awkward. I recommend that you start at toe-to-instep --- That is (if you're right-handed) the toe of your right foot is in line with the instep of your left foot.
I can't stress this enough, John. There is so much bad information out there. Even if it's a pro talking in a video clip, some don't really understand what they're doing at the table. They think they are doing it one way but actually are doing it a different way.
45 years ago I was backing a good local 9 ball player at a bar I owned. Little Oscar (never knew his last name). A guy came in wanting to play for money so I called Oscar. He arrived and asked me "do you know who that is?" I said no. He said "he is the current world champion snooker player". I said "goodbye Oscar". He said "no, he can't beat me at 9 ball on a bar table with the big cue ball". It turned out he was right. After two sets where Oscar started behind he came back and the guy quit us.
I wish I knew the snooker player's name but at the time that was not what was important to me. I look back at those days where the best players in Southern California were Billy Johnson (Wade Crane) and Ronnie Allen and realize we had a LOT of really good local players. Lots of great names too; Fat Tommy, Cadillac Larry, Charlie the Ape, Karate Fred, Little Al, Little Oscar, Atlantic City Doc White, International Al (we called him Alibi Al) and so forth. Fun time in my life.
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The idea of rocking back a little after bending down is new to me. I would say my weight is normally forward, balanced but more weight on the front, hence some weight on the bridge hand. By rocking back a little my weight does distribute some. I have some weight on my bridge hand but not as much. I get that feeling of my butt moving back a little. I seem to be looking more straight down the table vs. tilting my head up to see.
If I stepped into the shot correctly to begin with I don't think I would need the rock back motion but since I don't seem to be able to lead with my butt it may make sense for me to push it back after the rest of my body is in position. What do you think?
I feel pretty balanced that way but not so weight forward. It also moves my head down and back a little. It does position my head farther from the cue ball but it is also more behind it, so more online and less looking down.
I wanted to post these UT videos for informational purposes only. Just food for thought.
The bodies center of gravity.
https://youtu.be/MGObbsKpbVM?t=212
https://youtu.be/2WUdHBso3Vk?t=9
The humans natural gait. A humans personal gait is determined by their height and leg length.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZBiv0uSXVg
In any case I feel that a player should try to maintain their center of gravity. This is accomplished by rocking back on your back leg. By rocking back you are moving your center of gravity from front to back. You will feel the center of gravity shift from front to back and you will feel more comfortable when down into the shooting position.
A few years ago I remember an instructors advise on this forum. It goes like this, "there is nothing wrong with doing something that is not natural, but you had better make sure you do it that way every single the time" Wonder who said that.
As soon as I read that I thought to myself, I'm going to be hell bent on doing what is natural and that has been my focus for the last 3 years.
Ya gotta love bio-mechanics
John
The bodies center of gravity.
https://youtu.be/MGObbsKpbVM?t=212
https://youtu.be/2WUdHBso3Vk?t=9
The humans natural gait. A humans personal gait is determined by their height and leg length.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZBiv0uSXVg
In any case I feel that a player should try to maintain their center of gravity. This is accomplished by rocking back on your back leg. By rocking back you are moving your center of gravity from front to back. You will feel the center of gravity shift from front to back and you will feel more comfortable when down into the shooting position.
A few years ago I remember an instructors advise on this forum. It goes like this, "there is nothing wrong with doing something that is not natural, but you had better make sure you do it that way every single the time"
Wonder who said that. As soon as I read that I thought to myself, I'm going to be hell bent on doing what is natural and that has been my focus for the last 3 years.
Ya gotta love bio-mechanics
John
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You're going to have to experiment with that. Rather than rocking back, I like to refer to it as a lean back because rocking refers to a back and forth motion which isn't necessary. It should be one motion of leaning back and that should be it. --- And you're right --- if you plant your feet in a certain way, you pretty much lean back automatically.
The problem with doing it when you're already in your stance is that it brings you farther back from the table. I think it's better if you can combine the lean back with your motion of bending down. You just have to remember to stand a hair closer to the table to accommodate the lean bringing your body back or you will find yourself too far from the table.
As far as standing correctly, I have found that once you find it, you know it's right because you feel in balance. It may feel a little strange at first, but that's true when you try anything new. To me, a good stance is one that compliments the human anatomy and doesn't fight with it, like how leaning too far forward can cause rotator cuff issues, for example.
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